Free will, hell, and reasonable appeals to emotion
Many good conversations were had over my four days at Notre Dame University. One of the more interesting conversations occurred with one particular philosopher and concerned the topic of hell. (The philosopher will remain nameless since it is awkward to begin contacting people and asking for their permission to use their name in a blog post based on a casual conversation. Needless to say it is even worse to use their name without permission.)
This is how the conversation progressed. At one point I expressed my dissatisfaction with libertarian appeals to free will as explanations for hell (whether that is understood as eternal conscious torment or annihilation). The standard appeal against which I was reacting is that God respects our free will and so, as C.S. Lewis put it, the gates of hell are locked on the inside.
And what was my problem with this venerable form of argument? Well if an individual was going to refuse to be reconciled to God in eternity, I argued, why wouldn’t God simply override that individual’s free will at all the points where they would otherwise rebel with the end result being that they choose to be reconciled to God? In other words, (2) is more plausible than (1) where (1) and (2) are as follows:
(1) Damned uninhibited free will: God does not override a person’s free will and as a result that person’s free choices result in them being damned.
and
(2) Free will override: God overrides a person’s free will at all points necessary for that person to choose to achieve eternal shalom in relationship with God and a restored creation.
But if this is the case then why do Christian libertarians treat free will as if it is some sacred, inviolable thing that can trump even the eternal flourishing of creatures and the restoration of all things?
When considering the free will override, keep in mind the following two things which are important to avoid making facile objections to the proposal. First, the individual’s free will would only be overriden at some points. And so it is not like a person would become an “automaton”. They’d still have intentions, beliefs, desires and the like. And in many (most?) cases, they would still act freely. For example, they might freely choose on a particular occasion in restored creation to have a vanilla ice cream cone rather than a chocolate one. (Incidentally, such ice cream is not only creamier and tastier than any presently existing ice cream but also has all the nutrition of a bowl of raw broccoli.) Second, the person would never know the points at which their free will had been or was being overridden. Indeed, they’d never know that they ended up in heaven due in part to God’s determining intervention. Consequently, their “quality of life” in this eternal existence would be indistinguishable from a person who had completely unimpeded free will.
With those points in mind I issued my trump card: I invited my interlocutor to consider his reaction to the two scenarios if the person we were talking about was his own child. And so my question: if his child was an irrepressible rebel, would he prefer that his child have a damned, uninhibited free will, or that his child be subject to a free will override where necessary to ensure that the child would enjoy an eternal blissful existence in harmonious restored relationship with God and creation?
At that point he looked at me and replied with a “Come on, that’s an appeal to emotion” response. Yes, I agreed, it was most emphatically a bald appeal to emotion. But what is wrong with that? Many of the truths we believe most deeply and profoundly are believed because of our emotional aversion or attraction to particular states of affairs, events or propositions. So what? That is typically a powerful ground to guide or belief.
Consider how our most basic moral convictions are formed and guided by our deep attraction to certain things (the good) and aversion to others (evil). But don’t just consider it in the abstract. Consider it in the concrete. Do you want to contemplate whether genocide could ever be a praiseworthy or permissible action? Does your reading of Joshua compel you to do so? Well I ask you to read Philip Gourevitch’s We Wish to Inform You That Tomorrow We Will Be Killed with Our Families, a harrowing account of the Rwanda genocide, and then consider whether you are still committed to that position that genocide could be a good thing. Let your revulsion at the narratives contained therein spill over to all past, present and possible genocides with the recognition that they are all moral aberrations, indeed that they must be.
And so it is here. Consider what it would mean for your own beloved child to be damned eternally (whether by being subjected to eternal conscious torment or a horrifying final execution) and ask whether in that extreme circumstance of a recalcitrant free will, you would prefer for the will to be overridden for the sake of your beloved. Of course you would. Free will override as a trade for blissful existence? That’s a no-brainer.
So why the trigger response against appeals to emotion? I think part of the prejudice against such reasoning arises from an erroneous assumption that it is somehow related to “crazy love” (cue Van Morrison), the kind of irrational and often irresponsible youthful infatuation that can lead an honors student to believe her drug addict boyfriend “Spike” cares more for her than do her own parents. Obviously that’s stupid. But it also has absolutely nothing to do with the kind of measured, fully rational emotional appeal I’m making here. I hope you can appreciate that there is a rather large chasm between our aversion to genocide or the damnation of our children and the irrational conclusions of an infatuated young adult.
Of course if this proposal is true then universalism seems to follow. Alas, that’s not quite true. I said that (2) seems more plausible than (1). And so it does. That doesn’t mean that (2) is true and (1) is false. But surely it does suggest a measure of care in formulating our appeals to free will as a justification for a hell eternal in duration or effect. And it does help us see that appeals to emotion in thinking through such matters can be most reasonable indeed.
Tags: annihilationism, free will, hell, universalism47 Comments
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[...] can be sustained then it will serve as a rebutting defeater to the argument I presented in “Free will, hell, and reasonable appeals to emotion“. But is it a good [...]
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[...] Response to Tim Keller and the Mythological AdamTheology and PhilosophyRandal RauserFree will, hell, and reasonable appeals to emotionMichael Heiser @ The Naked BibleThoughts on the New Perspective on PaulCharles @ BibleXFee on the [...]
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James Palmer says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 2:58am
Great thoughts, Randall.
If I have a bout of insanity and am about to jump off the bridge, I hope someone will do what it takes to stop me.
In the same way, if I irrationally desire Hell over Heaven when I die, then I sure hope somebody (God?) will override that desire and save me.
Free will is a means to an end, and that end is love. If free will ceases to serve the purpose of providing a way to love, then I can’t see any reason for God not to intervene even if it involves overriding free will – “free will” isn’t some ultimate good touted in the Bible, but love is.
Ray Ingles says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 11:35am
I thought people were only saved by grace anyway? Isn’t it just that the saved got their free will overridden as it is?
James Palmer says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 11:39am
Ray – that would approximate the Calvinist view.
The Arminian view is that we can reject that grace, and while doing so, God will not override that free will decision.
Walter says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 11:41am
Lewis’s argument makes little sense anyway. If the gates of hell are locked from the inside, then it must mean that reprobates are actually enjoying hell. Where’s the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
This post reminds me of some quotes by Robert G. Ingersoll:
No civilized men ever believed in this dogma. The belief in eternal punishment has driven millions from the church. It was easy enough for people to imagine that the children of others had gone to hell; that foreigners had been doomed to eternal pain; but when it was brought home — when fathers and mothers bent above their dead who had died in their sins — when wives shed their tears on the faces of husbands who had been born but once — love suggested doubts and love fought the dogma of eternal revenge.
randal says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 12:31pm
“Lewis’s argument makes little sense anyway. If the gates of hell are locked from the inside, then it must mean that reprobates are actually enjoying hell.”
That’s what Bon Scott thought. So what we need to make Lewis’ account plausible are examples of people continuing to choose behaviors which make them more miserable (rather than happier). Then it would be easier to project such established patterns of behavior as continuing into eternity. Alas, there are many such examples. Think of the drug addict who wants nothing more than another hit of the very thing that is making her most miserable. So on one take, Lewis is positing a hell of ever-more-miserable addicts. And there would be little enjoyment in that.
James Palmer says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 1:20pm
If Hell is like letting a drug addict’s addiction take over for eternity, then it seems neither loving or just. That kind of Hell would be linking sickness to morality in a way that appears opposite to that of Jesus’ teaching and actions.
Walter says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 2:16pm
Does this mean that the damned will be addicted to hell?
I think the reason that Lewis makes that particular argument is because he cannot stomach the belief that his benevolent deity is *casting* the damned into hell. It’s easier to blame the individual for being so evil that they march into hell, shaking their defiant fist at God, and ask God for “some more suffering, if you please.”
The morality of hell is such a problem that orthodox views of hell seem to be shifting from belief in eternal pain to belief in eternal shame for those who don’t accept the good news.
Beetle says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 7:50am
Thank you Walter.
On another thread, you recently wrote:
> I would conclude that we have ample evidence that a few people had sincere belief that they saw their cult leader/messianic contender alive after reports of his death.
I would like to know how you arrive at even this modest conclusion. Based on what other founders (of cults that turned into religions) claim, it seems at least equally probable to me that a few people made stuff up. The mythic Jesus line of thinking also has some credibility (but not IMHO as much as what you conclude above).
Walter says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 12:04pm
I am personally convinced that Jesus was a historical person.
Check out these arguments:
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6751775&postcount=1
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6753519&postcount=1
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.php?p=6796495&postcount=1
If Jesus was indeed an historical person, then it boggles the mind to believe that a religion sprung up around him based on outright lies. It is more parsimonious to accept that at least some of Jesus’ followers genuinely believed that they say him again after his death. Whether they really saw him is another question altogether.
beetle says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 12:00pm
Thanks again.
> If Jesus was indeed an historical person, then it boggles the mind to believe that a religion sprung up around him based on outright lies.
Hardly! Is this not a fair accounting for the successses of Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard?
beetle says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 12:24pm
Those are all arguments in favor of a historical Jesus, which I think is more credible than Jesus being mythic. That is not the bit that I am skeptical about.
You also said that “we have ample evidence that a few people had sincere belief that they saw their cult leader/messianic contender alive after reports of his death”. What (or where) is that evidence?
The Atheist Missionary says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 12:38pm
So why the trigger response against appeals to emotion?
Because common sense reasoning is heretical. Surely you have learned that by now.
If there is a god and there is a hell, recent scientific evidence* would suggest that the Calvinists are right. Contra-causal free will is an illusion.
* – “… the suggestion that we make decisions free from causal factors that entirely determine those decisions appears to conflict with the best scientific evidence available. Brain researchers have recently found evidence to suggest that certain decisions can be made up to 10 seconds before a decision enters human awareness (see “Unconscious Determinants of Free Decisions in the Human Brain”, Nature Neuroscience 11, 543 – 545 (2008)). Simply put, if someone watching your brain scan can tell that you are going to choose chocolate ice cream while you are still mulling between chocolate and vanilla, it is hard to understand how your choice of chocolate was made freely.” http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2010/09/irreligiosity-is-free-will-mirage.html
beetle says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 1:06pm
I am sure Randal will be pleased to hear that Sam Harris recently blogged about this very topic! First I must ask, being a philosophy newb and all, is “contra-causal free will” and “libertarian free will” the same thing? Moreover, I must confess that not having free will in the vernacular troubles me as much as anyone — but I have made my peace with not having “contra-causal free will” and the later seems to be what Sam Harris is discussing.
Randal’s thought experiment of God tweaking a human mind is very much in parallel with Sam’s mad scientist about halfway through. Randal and Sam are making the same case that free will must be an illusion!
Walter says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 2:07pm
Calvinists and most atheists tend to believe in a compatibilistic type of free will, ie free will that is somehow compatible with determinism.
beetle says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 2:52pm
> free will that is somehow compatible with determinism
What do those claimst look like? It seems incoherent.
Walter says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 2:54pm
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
chris says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 3:51pm
I don’t think the type of override you are talking would work. Not if we are talking about the biblical opposite of hell.
In the Bible heaven, the new heaven and earth, whatever you want to call it included the very presence of God himself and all the creatures there worshipping him. There is nothing that is contrary to his nature – no sin whatsoever, no selfishness, no corrupt thoughts etc. Its a place where creature who have acknowledged the Creator as being such and have recognized his authority and attributes while living on earth and as such have no desire greater than to be in his presence in worship and union.
No minor override can bring about this change in a person.
randal says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 8:12pm
But I didn’t describe it as a “minor override”. I simply said that God could suppress the sinful rebellious impulses in individuals to facilitate the redemption of those individuals. Why would you think this is problematic?
davidstarlingm says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 7:11pm
Along the same lines (though not in complete concurrence) with what Chris said….
Heaven would be hell for a person who does not love God.
How does sinful man come to love sinless God?
randal says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 8:14pm
David (and Chris),
I take it you both believe that God brought the universe into existence out of nothing. This despite the intuitive appeal of the proposition “ex nihilo nihil fit” (out of nothing nothing comes). If you believe God can bring a universe like ours into being out of nothing why would you think omnipotence would not be able to suppress the sinful impulses in a human being so as to facilitate redemption of that human being? Where’s your argument to that effect?
chris says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 8:33pm
As David said – Heaven would be hell for someone who does not want to worship God.
I have no problem no issue with God being able to suppress the sinful impulses in a human being.
But I think there is a huge different between suppressing sinful impulses and overriding a human beings choice making so much that they are forced to worship God.
“Overriding sinful impulses” is a rather arbitrary statement anyway.
Moral reform can definitely happen without spiritual reform.
My interpretation of the bible is that people who had decide in this life that they want nothing to do with God and do not want to submit and worship Him, for whatever reason, will get exactly what they want.
randal says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 10:31pm
“I think there is a huge different between suppressing sinful impulses and overriding a human beings choice making so much that they are forced to worship God.”
Why? Do you know that even now human beings are able to manipulate brains in such a way that things we despised we suddenly are attracted to and vice versa? Why would you think it is beyond the control of an omnipotent being to override sinful human dispositions.
I don’t know what this means: ““Overriding sinful impulses” is a rather arbitrary statement anyway.”
This argument isn’t based directly on an interpretation of the Bible.
So I’m still left wondering on what basis one could claim that an omnipotent being would be unable to override sinful human dispositions to facilitate salvation.
chris says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 10:41pm
What is your definition of sin?
What is your definition of a sinful impulse?
randal says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 10:53pm
There are two basic theoretical approaches toward sin, the teleological (ends based) and the nomological (law-based). The former sees sin as a failure to live up to one’s created end whereas the latter roots sin in the willful transgression of rules. But this whole argument underdetermines one’s theory of sin. That is, we don’t need to have a definition of sin in place to know that God could override human free will such that a person would no longer sin. By the same token I don’t need to know what light is to know that turning on a switch will flood the room with it.
chris says:
Monday, June 6, 2011 at 11:04pm
I thin you are misunderstanding my argument. I was not clear.
I have no doubt that God override any impulse, thought or action.
My point is this.
If sin is anything that is contrary to the revealed will of God, and God overrides a persons ability to anything contrary to Gods will, is that still free will?
In my opinion, if you do not have the choice to obey or to disobey, then the game has been completely changed.
Not that God cannot do it if he so desires.
It’s just like the muslim country in the middle east that I was in last month. Their government has convinced their people that they have religious freedom. They people are proud of this “freedom” and will tell you all about it.
But their freedom is much like walking into a restaurant and the waiter says:
Welcome! What would you like to drink? You are free to choose anything you like. We have Coke. Go ahead – choose whatever you like. You are free to choose. We have Coke. ”
Thats not freedom.
randal says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 5:02pm
The whole point of my argument is that it is plausible to believe that God would sooner override freedom than allow people to exercise their freedom in such a way that it leads to their eternal damnation. So I’m not sure what the point of your comment is. Are you saying you value your free will to damn yourself over a restored blissful existence with God and his creation?
davidstarlingm says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 6:44pm
Naturally, it isn’t a question of whether God would be capable of suppressing sinful impulses; the question is what God does to effect redemption.
I don’t think God suppresses anything. Every person who has ever been born again did so entirely of their own free will. The question, though, is the same as what I asked before: how does a sinful man come to love a sinless God?
Self-awareness seems to unavoidably bring with it two fundamental properties: free will and selfishness. It is the conjunction of these two properties that results in total depravity; men will inevitably choose selfishness and sin over righteousness.
Now, God could choose to override free will, forcing men to choose righteousness instead of sin. This would be perfectly possible. However, it is not consistent with what God seems to intend for humanity.
Instead of suppressing free will, God chooses to overcome selfishness. The only thing stronger than selfishness is love. A person who has been born again has so much gratitude for what God has done that their love for God overwhelms their natural selfishness.
So God never touches our free will: not because He couldn’t, but because He doesn’t need to.
randal says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 6:53pm
“So God never touches our free will: not because He couldn’t, but because He doesn’t need to.”
If there are individuals that freely would choose to reject God eternally then, if he seeks a relationsihp with those individuals, he would need to suppress their wills.
“Now, God could choose to override free will, forcing men to choose righteousness instead of sin. This would be perfectly possible. However, it is not consistent with what God seems to intend for humanity.”
Is it more consistent that God create creatures that will end up eternally damned? If it is more consistent that fact is hardly obvious.
davidstarlingm says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 7:40pm
“If there are individuals that freely would choose to reject God eternally then, if he seeks a relationsihp with those individuals, he would need to suppress their wills.”
God requires righteousness. All individuals “would freely choose to reject God eternally”, because righteousness is inconsistent with one of the two fundamental properties of self-awareness: selfishness. So yes, God needs to change something, but our free will is not the problem, so it is the last thing that God would be interested in changing.
God could override free will, but that would be a last resort. There are two other things he can override instead: human selfishness, or divine righteousness.
So should God change his nature and lower his standards to include human selfishness, or should he provide humans with a more powerful motivation than their natural selfishness?
If you think the latter is the answer, this raises another question: does God owe this motivation to humans?
chris says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 7:41pm
“If there are individuals that freely would choose to reject God eternally then, if he seeks a relationsihp with those individuals, he would need to suppress their wills.”
I disagree. You are saying that when he seeks, he forces, but that is not true. He seeks to have a relationship with everyone, but he leaves it up to us to decide.
Faith, whether it is in God, Evolution, Creation, Christianity, Naturalism, is a decision. At some point everyone make a choice.
“Is it more consistent that God create creatures that will end up eternally damned? If it is more consistent that fact is hardly obvious.”
Assuming we are all talking about the same “hell” which I take to mean the place referred to in Matthew 25:41 as
“…the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels….”
then I’d have to say that it is obvious that God created a place for the created creatures who chose not to repent of their part in the most heinous act of treason ever. Its also obvious that God is extremely patient with people – giving them ample opportunity to repent.
Walter says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 8:50pm
Of course God messes with man’s will to suit His purpose–just ask any Calvinist.
davidstarlingm says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 9:42pm
Clearly, one of us has a very odd view of what a Calvinist is. Because, last I checked, I are one.
Walter says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 9:46pm
You are a Calvinist that believes God respects free will? I’ve got to here more!
Walter says:
Tuesday, June 7, 2011 at 9:47pm
I meant “hear more”
davidstarlingm says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 4:25am
It’s not a terribly revolutionary concept; I daresay most respectable reformed folks out there would agree with the way I explain it.
God doesn’t tamper with free will; he doesn’t need to. Nor has he ever done so. “Original Sin” is just a fancy term for the fact that you and I exist in the same corrupted state that has been the status quo ever since corruption was first introduced by Adam’s free will. You’re no different from anybody else.
The idea of God “editing” someone’s free will is an abhorrent concept. How impotent must God be if he is unable to get anyone to love him without planting the notion in their heads?
Total depravity just says what pretty much everyone already knows: human beings are motivated by selfishness and selfishness alone. Because selfishness is not consistent with righteousness, this means that there is nothing in humans that desire God.
So, again, God has a few options. He can selectively override human free will here and there, forcing humans to love him, or he can cease to be righteous, thus allowing human selfishness to motivate reconciliation at random. The third option is the one that reformed theology prefers: the effect of recognizing the love of God poured out through Christ is sufficient to overwhelm human selfishness with gratitude, prompting love.
That’s where the term “irresistible grace” comes from. It’s not that God twists the human mind into “accepting” him; it’s simply that grace, once recognized, prompts a weight of gratitude that is far stronger than a human’s natural selfishness.
Like I said, this isn’t revolutionary. The notion that Calvinism is anti-free-will is an amusing caricature, but it doesn’t represent reality.
Walter says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 2:22pm
That’s where the term “irresistible grace” comes from. It’s not that God twists the human mind into “accepting” him; it’s simply that grace, once recognized, prompts a weight of gratitude that is far stronger than a human’s natural selfishness.
“Grace, once recognized”
What you are espousing is not at all consistent with the Calvinist teachings that I am familiar with. Calvinists claim that man is born in a state of total inability (i.e. completely dead in their sin), and that the unregenerate person cannot recognize God’s grace until God sends the Holy Spirit to regenerate that person and reverse the noetic effects of sin, thus enabling that person to now recognize grace and repent. How is this not an “override” of the elected person’s natural state or will, if you prefer? God is “flipping a switch” in those predestined towards election.
David says: Like I said, this isn’t revolutionary. The notion that Calvinism is anti-free-will is an amusing caricature, but it doesn’t represent reality.
Calvinists, atheists, and Muslim do not believe in the same kind of free will that a classical Arminian believes in. Calvinists believe in compatibilism in contrast to the Arminian definition of free will as libertarian, so we end up with a confusion in terminology. Compatibilism states that we are free to act on our desires, but that our desire are causally determined by antecedent factors. Or stated another way: Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills–Arthur Schopenhauer.
davidstarlingm says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 5:49pm
“Calvinists claim that man is born in a state of total inability (i.e. completely dead in their sin), and that the unregenerate person cannot recognize God’s grace….”
Yes.
“….until God sends the Holy Spirit to regenerate that person and reverse the noetic effects of sin, thus enabling that person to now recognize grace and repent.”
This is one way it has been explained. It is better phrased thusly:
“….until the Holy Spirit regenerates the person by revealing sovereign grace, thus overcoming the effects of the selfish nature and enabling that person to subsequently repent.”
Note Titus 2: “For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all peoples.”
The question, of course, is whether God is obligated or required to reveal sovereign grace to every individual.
Walter says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 7:25pm
This is one way it has been explained. It is better phrased thusly:
“….until the Holy Spirit regenerates the person by revealing sovereign grace, thus overcoming the effects of the selfish nature and enabling that person to subsequently repent.
Which means that you do agree that God overrides some part of the human nature to facilitate salvation in at least some selected individuals. You just don’t believe that God has any good reason to do that for all people–just a few select cheerleaders. I guess the potter doesn’t owe the clay any explanation for his actions, no matter how immoral those actions might seem to the “clay.”
davidstarlingm says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 9:19pm
God does not override any aspect of human nature; he does not need to.
Let’s bring it back to the concept of rape, because that seems to be a very good way of looking at it. Let’s say that we have a couple — call them John and Jane. John and Jane are married.
Now, if John slips a benzodiazepine into Jane’s drink in order to prompt intercourse, he has overridden her free will. This is the case even if she ends up being happy about it.
On the other hand, if John knows Jane extremely well, and so performs a series of actions (taking her to visit her sick aunt, cleaning the house, cooking dinner for her, etc) that he knows will produce strong feelings of gratitude, affection, and desire, then he has not overridden her free will. He has merely overcome her inhibitions.
God does not override human nature, he overcomes it. There is a dramatic difference between those two options. Natural men are inhibited from righteousness by selfishness. Rather than magically overriding their inhibitions, God leaves those inhibitions in place and uses love to produce gratitude strong enough to negate the affections of selfishness.
davidstarlingm says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 9:19pm
That was supposed to be a reply to Walter’s last comment. Sorry.
Walter says:
Wednesday, June 8, 2011 at 10:32pm
God does not override human nature, he overcomes it. There is a dramatic difference between those two options.
It seems to be a distinction without a difference from my POV.
Natural men are inhibited from righteousness by selfishness. Rather than magically overriding their inhibitions, God leaves those inhibitions in place and uses love to produce gratitude strong enough to negate the affections of selfishness.,
You do realize that even some Calvinists have called the doctrine of Irresistible Grace the “Holy Rape of the Soul.” The fact is that Calvinist dogma states that God effects a change on the elected individual’s desires, and the elected person cannot resist the change. Whether you use the word “overcome” versus “override” seems irrelevant. To put it bluntly, regeneration occurs against the natural will of the unregenerate sinner, since the unregenerate sinner wants nothing to do with God until he has been regenerated. Ergo, God is effecting a change in the will of those that are chosen to be his special friends, while the rest of us receive no gift of faith.
davidstarlingm says:
Thursday, June 9, 2011 at 6:03pm
Let’s think about this logically.
If someone did something moderately nice for you, you would have a certain degree of gratitude toward them.
If someone did something more nice for you, you would have more gratitude toward them.
If someone did something extraordinarily nice for you, sacrificing their own comfort and security to do it, you would feel a very significant degree of gratitude.
So we have established that the level of gratitude you feel is proportional to the significance of the sacrifice or courtesy done on your behalf. More accurately, the level of gratitude you feel is proportional to your understanding of the significance of the sacrifice or courtesy done for you.
It is also undeniable that gratitude, as a motivating factor, is capable of counteracting the natural human impulse of selfishness.
Thus, the argument is sound. Humans are too selfish to naturally desire God, because God is righteous and this clashes with selfishness. There is no human motivation capable of overcoming this selfish nature. However, because the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf was so powerful, the revelation of its enormity to a human being prompts so much gratitude that it overcomes human selfishness.
Nothing is being “overridden” in the sense that something is being turned off.
Regeneration is what happens to free will when selfishness is overwhelmed by gratitude.
Walter says:
Thursday, June 9, 2011 at 9:41pm
Regeneration is what happens to free will when selfishness is overwhelmed by gratitude.
Then why doesn’t everyone feel overwhelmed by this sense of gratitude? Don’t confuse Calvinist teachings with Arminian. Calvinists claim that regeneration precedes faith, so the fact that not all people have faith is because not all have not been regenerated.
I think that we may be talking past one another. I believe that you are objecting to the notion that God forces the elect to like him against their will. I am not saying that. I am saying that God manipulates the desires of the elected individual, making that individual *want* to love and serve him. I am sure that you will object to my use of the word “manipulate,” but that is how I see it. God has to manipulate the feelings of the elect to bring about repentance and faith. And God passes over most people for the gift of faith for reasons no one can fathom. This is basic Calvinism 101.
davidstarlingm says:
Friday, June 10, 2011 at 4:52pm
We probably are talking past one another at the moment, but I think we are getting closer to a mutual understanding.
I don’t necessarily object to the use of the word “manipulate”, as long as we take it to mean “effects change”. Everything we do is manipulation. What I object to is the implication that God manipulates the desires of the individual in some sort of artificial, esoteric way, essentially editing their mind.
God changes the desires of the individual by divinely impressing upon them the significance of his love in the Cross. There is nothing artificial or foreign about the resulting desire for God; that desire simply would never have arisen without a revelation of God’s love.
So yes: faith and repentance come after regeneration, but the regeneration isn’t artificial. Human free will, when faced with the revelation of divine love, reacts in a desire for regeneration, leading to repentance and faith.
“God has to manipulate the feelings of the elect to bring about repentance and faith.”
God doesn’t artificially manipulate feelings; he updates our understanding so that gratitude floods our hearts, regenerating our desires.
“God passes over most people for the gift of faith for reasons no one can fathom.”
Correction: God provides the opportunity for regeneration to some people for reasons no one can fathom.
Walter says:
Friday, June 10, 2011 at 5:32pm
“God passes over most people for the gift of faith for reasons no one can fathom.”
Correction: God provides the opportunity for regeneration to some people for reasons no one can fathom.
The corollary to offering the gift of faith to some for seemingly arbitrary reasons is that he is “passing over” many others also for seemingly arbitrary reasons. The flipside of unconditional election is unconditional reprobation–i.e. those left in their sins did nothing extra bad to merit their eternal damnation vs. those who were chosen for mercy. It is a very ugly belief, and one of the reasons that I was not a Calvinist during my Christian years.
davidstarlingm says:
Friday, June 10, 2011 at 6:02pm
“Those left in their sins did nothing extra bad to merit their eternal damnation vs. those who were chosen for mercy. It is a very ugly belief.”
Would it be “ugly” for a governor to pardon and rehabilitate 10 particularly wretched death row inmates, leaving 90 others to face the sentences they earned? I hardly think so. On the contrary, I think that would equitably demonstrate compassion, mercy, and justice.
“The corollary to offering the gift of faith to some for seemingly arbitrary reasons is that he is “passing over” many others also for seemingly arbitrary reasons.”
There is nothing remotely arbitrary about election.
Election is “unconditional” in that it does not depend on any prior action of the individual. However, it is by no means arbitrary. Historically speaking, God more often elects those individuals who seem least likely to be saved, because the salvation of those is more wonderful. This thinking is reflected throughout Scripture, particularly the parables of Jesus and Paul’s writings to the Romans.
The arrogant belief that God somehow “owes us Calvinists” election because we believe in it is a classic mark of hypercalvinism, not reformed theology.
Walter says:
Friday, June 10, 2011 at 9:14pm
Would it be “ugly” for a governor to pardon and rehabilitate 10 particularly wretched death row inmates, leaving 90 others to face the sentences they earned? I hardly think so. On the contrary, I think that would equitably demonstrate compassion, mercy, and justice.
“Equitably?” Do you really think that randomly picking 10 out of 100 inmates for mercy is dealing equitably with all involved? Is it compassionate or merciful to the other 90? And where is the justice in letting any of them off the hook for their crimes?
For that matter, I do not agree that most humans have ever done *anything* deserving of eternal torment. Christianity makes it a crime to be born human. When a newborn draws its first breath it is apparently an affront to a Holy God–or so I am told by the pious lovers of God who hate mankind.
Election is “unconditional” in that it does not depend on any prior action of the individual. However, it is by no means arbitrary. Historically speaking, God more often elects those individuals who seem least likely to be saved, because the salvation of those is more wonderful
What you are saying is that God has decided to save YOU because You (a young guy living in the heart of the bible belt, USA) would be someone that would be the “least likely to be saved.” Really?
And I assume that God will non-arbitrarily elect your spouse and kids as well, since children of Christian households are so unlikely to become Christians themselves.