Why the Calvinist’s need to exclude some people from God’s love does not bode well

Posted on 12/26/11 71 Comments

David Houston argues that the Calvinist has a richer view of God’s love than the Arminian. This is initially a surprising claim. We knew that Calvinists had cornered the sovereignty market. But love? Wasn’t that the Arminian’s specialty? Not according to Houston. His argument proceeds as follows:

Arminians are able to claim that God loves everyone only by watering down the meaning of love to the point where you can’t really enjoy its flavour. If my wife tells me that she loves me then I feel great! But that quickly changes when she tells me that she has an equal love for all men. Likewise, should I feel all warm and fuzzy inside if God loves me but he also loves the people in Hell, unbelievers, the demons, and Satan himself?

Now what should we think of this bold argument? Well there is quite a bit going on in this packed paragraph. Let’s take some time to unpack it.

David begins with a soupy culinary metaphor in which God decreeing to love some creatures and hate others adds up to a spicier meal than God decreeing to love all. (Reading from the theological foodie’s notes: “The Arminian’s omnibenevolent borscht is bland and lacks contrast. But this Calvinist’s particularist pozole is to-die-for!”)

He then comes perilously close to mixing metaphors by abruptly shifting course to talk about marriage and a rather shocking radically polyandrous counterfactual in which one’s wife informs the husband that she loves all men (romantically I assume).

David then ends with a reflection on warm, fuzzy feelings, though it is not clear whether those are soup-induced (the warmth possibly so, but the fuzziness?) or relationally induced.

In other words, this is a rather dizzying montage of metaphor/analogy. But here’s the critical question: does it illumine David’s case? Does it show that Calvinists really do have a more satisfactory conception of the divine love?

Let’s begin by setting aside the culinary metaphor(s) to focus our attention on the central marriage analogy.

Next, let’s articulate clearly the problem with David’s position that his marriage analogy needs to address. He writes: “Likewise, should I feel all warm and fuzzy inside if God loves me but he also loves the people in Hell, unbelievers, the demons, and Satan himself?” In other words, should David feel warm and fuzzy inside if God loves not only extends to David and a select number of creatures but to all God’s creatures?

At first blush: yes of course you should. Why the need to exclude some creatures from God’s love?

When you think about it, on the face of it David’s incredulous question looks surprisingly ugly. Think about it like this:

Willy Wonka, the head of a wonderful chocolate factory, has come to Davey’s grade 3 classroom with an announcement. “Class!” Mr. Wonka says, “I have hidden some tickets in the desks of some very lucky children. If you find a ticket you will be able to visit my factory!” Immediately Davey reaches into his desk and feels a strange piece of paper on top of his dictionary. He pulls it out and yelps for joy. A golden ticket! To say Davey feels warm and fuzzy inside is an understatement. Then as he looks around the room he sees more and more children also pulling out tickets. Suddenly Davey realizes that all the children have their hands raised in the air clutching a golden ticket. Mr. Wonka actually put a ticket in the desk of every child.

Davey has gone from thinking that he was the special winner of a golden ticket to realizing that Mr. Wonka has treated all the children equally, offering a ticket to each. How should Davey respond? If we apply David Houston’s logic, he should be disappointed at the discovery that Wonka chose to give each child a ticket. On this view it would be sweeter for Davey if only some children received a ticket while others were excluded. I must say, that strikes me as a very ugly reaction. As I’ve observed elsewhere, this is like saying that children will enjoy their toys from Santa more if they know that other children received lumps of coal in their stocking.

Needless to say, David’s suggestion that we should find it unpalatable to think that God loves “unbelievers” (that is, sinners) stumbles on the fact that we are all sinners by God’s primary decree. So we are back to the fact that David thinks it sweeter if God loves only some sinners — presumably including himself — rather than all sinners.

That’s the problem. How can David redeem the ugliness of the position he’s staked out for himself, a position that seems to tie one’s joy commensurately to the extent where others are excluded from that joy?

It is at this point that the success of the marriage analogy becomes essential, for it is an analogy that purports to demonstrate how joy and satisfaction is tied essentially to exclusivity. Does it succeed?

Initially there seems some hope. After all, the relationship of Israel to Yahweh and the church to Christ are both described in terms of a marriage relationship which includes covenant faithfulness and exclusivity.

But there are a couple significant problems with any attempt to use these two images to support David’s position. The first problem is that the biblical images are strikingly disanalogous to David’s marital analogy at a key point. I agree that spousal love is properly exclusive. But in the biblical metaphors in question, the bride is not one particular human individual but a single class of multiple individuals which, in the church as bride metaphor at least, includes potentially billions of individuals. Now we face a question: does it dilute the metaphor of the church as Christ’s bride to discover that there are more members of that class than we thought previously? For instance, yesterday I learned that Harry Connick Jr. is a practicing Catholic. Should that discovery dilute the metaphor of the church as Christ’s bride? If not, then what is the threshold? How many people can be included ultimately within that class before it is diluted? In the past I have defended the position of “hopeful universalism” where one hopes universalism is true even if one does not believe it is true. See for example: http://randalrauser.com/2011/02/hopeful-universalism-and-the-lottery-illustration/ But the issue here is not primarily universalism or hopeful universalism. Rather, it is this question: if potentially billions and billions can be members of the elect class that constitute the bride, then how many need to be excluded from that relationship metaphor to work no longer?

This leads us to the second, and even deeper problem for David. Scripture provides other metaphors to describe election, including the metaphor of adoption into God’s family. Imagine an orphan named Gabby who discovers that she has just been adopted by loving parents. She would be joy-filled! Would her joy be diminished if she discovered that the same parents, with their unlimited financial resources and great love, had adopted the other 9 children in the orphanage as well? If she were to be disappointed at that discovery it wouldn’t say much for Gabby, would it? Indeed, such a reaction would look positively ugly, just like Davey clutching his golden ticket with growing disappointment at the realization that Wonka offered the entire class a ticket.

So unfortunately for David, not only does his marriage analogy not support the exclusivity he wants, but other metaphors like familial adoption utterly decimate it. There thus is no defense for his disappointing claim that for God’s love to be really wonderful it must exclude somebody.

Let’s close with a brief reflection that borrows from John Rawls’ theory of justice. Rawls famously argued that we can begin to identify what a just society would look like by thinking of ourselves in an original position which he describes as follows:

no one knows his place in society, his class position or social status, nor does anyone know his fortune in the distribution of natural assets and abilities, his intelligence, strength, and the like. I shall even assume that the parties do not know their conceptions of the good or their special psychological propensities. The principles of justice are chosen behind a veil of ignorance.

Rawls’ theory has faced much criticism (as all important theories do). But it can still be helpful in conceiving a just society. If you were in that original position which kind of society would you prefer to be born into? Well for starters, you wouldn’t choose one in which one race or gender or class faced social or economic discrimination precisely because you could end up as being a member of that race or gender or class within that society. Thus, the thought experiment supports the conclusion that a just society is one which eschews discrimination of specific races, genders and classes. In this way, we can use this experiment to begin to identify what a just society would look like. It would be one which we would choose to be born into even from the original position.

David thinks that God’s love is sweeter because God loves him and not others. But what if David puts himself in the original position by stripping away his assumptions about his own special election? Would he still think it is sweeter for God to love some and hate others?

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  • Adam Omelianchuk

    How does David know God loves him?

    • Walter

      I have never met a Calvinist that wasn’t one of the elect.

      • David J. Houston

        Walter, how many self-identifying Arminians do you know that think they’re going to Hell?

    • David J. Houston

      Adam, how do you know that you’re saved?

      • Adam Omelianchuk

        You don’t know, do you?

        • David J. Houston

          Oh, I know. And if you know the answer to my question then you know the answer to your question. :)

          • Adam Omelianchuk

            Nice dodge, David. I am assured that God loves me and that Jesus died for me, because he did that for everyone. By not restricting the quantifiers in verses like John 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4, and 1 John 2:2, I can take his word for it. If you can do that, then more power to you. I just don’t think you are being a consistent Calvinist if you can.

            • David J. Houston

              Let’s assume that you’re right. You can be assured that Jesus loves you because John 3:16 and 1 Tim 2:4 say that Jesus died for you. Just like he did for everyone in Hell. I’m not sure how that is supposed to be comforting but we’ll move on. My view is that only those that Christ loved, those for whom Christ he died, will have faith in Christ. So how do I know I am loved? By knowing that I have faith in Christ. I assume that you believe Arminians can have assurance of salvation? If so, wouldn’t you go about figuring out if you’re saved in the exact same way?

              But if it’s okay for Arminians to reason in this fashion then why can’t Calvinists?

              • Adam Omelianchuk

                Thanks David! You said this

                “My view is that only those that Christ loved, those for whom Christ he died, will have faith in Christ.”

                which can be schematized like so:

                For every x, if x is loved by Christ and x is for whom Christ died, then x will have faith in Christ.

                You then write “So how do I know I am loved? By knowing that I have faith in Christ.”

                However, that just affirms the consequent. You could have faith that doesn’t persevere till the end and die in sin. You could be self-deceived, thinking you have saving faith when you really don’t. God could just as well be using you as a means to his glory in wrath as he could in salvation. All the evidences in your life that lead you to the explanation that God loves you could be countered with other evidences (patterns of sin, ect) that undermine it.

                True, Arminians can be self-deceived too, but they can have confidence that God would never set them up for destruction. I think that matters a great deal, don’t you?

                • David J. Houston

                  That would only be affirming the consequent if it were possible, on Calvinism, for someone to be granted saving faith without Christ having died for them. But that’s impossible so there’s no fallacy here.

                  As for your would-be undercutting defeaters… why can’t I say the same thing about Arminian assurance? You could think that you’re in a state of salvation when you really aren’t due to self-deception couldn’t you? You see this objection coming and try to get out of the way but I’m afraid you weren’t successful. The possibility of self-deception is possible regardless of whether or not God “sets you up for destruction” unless you want to say that no person has ever deceived themselves into believing that they are saved. But how would that mesh with Matthew 7’s warning?

                  So unless you want to say that assurance is impossible because self-deception is possible then your argument fails.

                  • Adam Omelianchuk

                    “As for your would-be undercutting defeaters… why can’t I say the same thing about Arminian assurance?”

                    Because in the face of self-doubt, an Arminian can look to God and be assured that God loves her and that Jesus died for her. That much is objectively true. Could you do that? The only way, it seems, for you to know is if you read your heart the right way. But how does one do that when one is doubting oneself?

                    • David J. Houston

                      Again, I’ll push aside the obvious point that someone in Hell could assure himself of God’s love this way too (and a fat lot of good that would do them!) in order to deal with your would-be defeater. How do I know that I have read my heart the right way? I don’t know, how do you know that you are not deceiving yourself into thinking you have faith in Christ and be assured of your salvation?

                      If you can satisfactorily answer that question you will have my answer.

                    • Adam Omelianchuk

                      Well, when I find myself in doubt I look to God’s love for me expressed in Christ’s death on the cross and I trust him. I don’t look within myself, for that is not a place of comfort. That much assures me and I gives me hope and confidence. Can you do that?

                    • David J. Houston

                      Absolutely. And when I do it actually means something because the cross of Christ actually bought the full redemption of those whom he chose to save unlike the view that you hold where the cross of Christ made salvation merely possible and then the rest is up to the sinner. I really don’t understand how the fact that Christ died for you is supposed to be so re-assuring when everyone in Hell can say that Christ died for them. In any case, it’s Arminianism that highlights man’s role in salvation. Your choice is the missing link, not God’s sovereign will.

  • David J. Houston

    Randal said: ‘When you think about it, on the face of it David’s incredulous question looks surprisingly ugly. Think about it like this:

    Willy Wonka, the head of a wonderful chocolate factory, has come to Davey’s grade 3 classroom with an announcement. “Class!” Mr. Wonka says, “I have hidden some tickets in the desks of some very lucky children. If you find a ticket you will be able to visit my factory!” Immediately Davey reaches into his desk and feels a strange piece of paper on top of his dictionary. He pulls it out and yelps for joy. A golden ticket! To say Davey feels warm and fuzzy inside is an understatement. Then as he looks around the room he sees more and more children also pulling out tickets. Suddenly Davey realizes that all the children have their hands raised in the air clutching a golden ticket. Mr. Wonka actually put a ticket in the desk of every child.’

    Randal didn’t like my metaphor so he substituted his own. But that doesn’t address the implications of my metaphor–which happens to be a Biblical metaphor.

    Randal said: ‘But there are a couple significant problems with any attempt to use these two images to support David’s position. The first problem is that the biblical images are strikingly disanalogous to David’s marital analogy at a key point. I agree that spousal love is properly exclusive. But in the biblical metaphors in question, the bride is not one particular human individual but a single class of multiple individuals which, in the church as bride metaphor at least, includes potentially billions of individuals. Now we face a question: does it dilute the metaphor of the church as Christ’s bride to discover that there are more members of that class than we thought previously?’

    Now Randal commits a level-confusion. At the figurative level, the marital metaphor is assuredly not a metaphor for polygamy or polyandry. It’s regularly contrasted with adultery or prostitution. At the metaphorical level, it does accentuate God’s unique love for Israel, in contrast to the pagans. His exclusive fidelity to Israel. The fact that the literal referent is plural doesn’t change the symbolic significance of the metaphor. At the metaphorical level, it’s the bride and the bridegroom–a one-to-one pairing. Moreover, the fundamental contrast is not between one and some, but between one and all. It still derives its force from the fact that Yahweh wedded Israel, in contrast to many others.

    But let’s go back to the Willy Wonka analogy. Why doesn’t it work? The reason is that for every kid who gets a golden ticket it actually means something. That is, if you get a golden ticket then you will go the chocolate factory. But the love of God, on Arminianism, is not like that. It’s more like those trophies that every kid gets these days for participation in sports. It doesn’t mean anything other than that you happen to have the ability to breathe and your parents signed you up for little league. Likewise, God’s love for you carries no significance if the same can be said of Satan. If God can ‘love’ you and create Hell especially for you then it doesn’t sound like the kind of love that any sane person would care about.

    Randal said: ‘Needless to say, David’s suggestion that we should find it unpalatable to think that God loves “unbelievers” (that is, sinners) stumbles on the fact that we are all sinners by God’s primary decree’

    Actually, all unbelievers are sinners but not all sinners are unbelievers. I’m a believer and I still sin. The question is whether or not we have been brought into saving relationship with Christ through faith. Are we now saved sinners?

    Lastly, Randal hinted that my reasoning would require me to believe that to the extent that I am singled out for salvation the happier I will be. This would have the unfortunate consequence that the higher the believer to unbeliever ratio is in favour of the unbeliever the happier I will be as if I get to God’s promise to Abraham about having more children then the stars in the sky and say, ‘Bummer!’. But this simply doesn’t follow from my position. My problem is not the scope of God’s love per se but with its efficacy. God will never allow those whom he loves to go to Hell. He only ever seeks their good. Even horrible things that happen to us will be used instrumentally to bring about our good and his glory. That’s the kind of love I want and if he gives it to the vast majority that’s fine with me and allows me to nod approvingly as I read that many will come to dine with Christ on the last day. (Mt 8:11)

    • randal

      “Randal didn’t like my metaphor so he substituted his own. But that doesn’t address the implications of my metaphor–which happens to be a Biblical metaphor.”

      As I explained, you’re misuing a biblical metaphor. You haven’t explained what’s wrong with the Willy Wonka illustration.

      “Now Randal commits a level-confusion.”

      No, I explained that the marriage metaphor is irrelevant to your argument for love requiring the kind of exclusivisity you describe with your wife since in principle all people could be elect and thus constituent parts of the bride.

      “But let’s go back to the Willy Wonka analogy. Why doesn’t it work? The reason is that for every kid who gets a golden ticket it actually means something. That is, if you get a golden ticket then you will go the chocolate factory. But the love of God, on Arminianism, is not like that.”

      The point of the metaphor is to show how ugly it is for one child to root his satisfaction in other kids not receiving a ticket. Do you think that Davey’s disappointment at all receiving a ticket is ugly or not?

      • David J. Houston

        Randal said: ‘No, I explained that the marriage metaphor is irrelevant to your argument for love requiring the kind of exclusivisity you describe with your wife since in principle all people could be elect and thus constituent parts of the bride.’

        I’ll leave to the side the arguments to the contrary provided by Oliver Crisp that I believe Manata brought to your attention.

        The point of the marriage metaphor was that if my wife tells me she loves me in the same way that she loves all other men, even those whom she has never met, even those whom she hates, then at best it’s a meaningless statement and at worst it’s a declaration that she doesn’t really love me.

        Concerning the Willy Wonka metaphor, I’ve already explained what’s wrong with it. In the Willy Wonka metaphor the tickets actually mean something but in your understanding of God’s love being for all creatures, even the ones who he says that he hates and that he created Hell specifically for, then it doesn’t have any significance. As I said earlier, my problem with your doctrine of omnibenevolence is not that God’s love is wide but that it is too shallow for even a goldfish to swim comfortably.

        Allow me to illustrate the ‘depth’ of the omnibenevolent God’s love. How does Judas know God loves him? “I’m burning in Hell!” he exclaims, “But God loves me! He loves every infernal blister!”

        http://www.burnsurgery.org/Modules/initial_mgmt/images/im-30.gif

        God loves Randal and God loves Judas. See what a wonderful difference that makes!

        And, as always, I have the Biblical argument for the Calvinist God being perfectly loving. If God is as the Bible describes then he is as the Calvinist describes. But if the God of the Bible is that being who exemplifies the maximal set of compossible great-making attributes then that means the Calvinist God is maximally loving even if he isn’t omnibenevolent.

        But this brings us back to the Bible and we all know how you feel about that.

  • pete

    While I don’t see any reason to impose necessity on God’s exclusion of others to warrant that the included feel “inclusion” on this basis, I will note a couple of observations:

    1) Love is better understood when contrasted against hate, and indifference.

    2) There is nothing wrong or immorral with cutting a guy a break for something they are guilty of, while choosing to impose punishment on another person for the exact same offence….. that is what makes mercy… mercy.

    The point is, that God can ontologically elect all persons… except Judas… and still be perfectly good and just (I throw the Judas comment in due to his damnation as a requirement for the fulfillment of scripture)

    However, God can also punish for the sin that requires death. Just because he gives mercy to some, does not entail that the reprobate get to say…. “C’mon you let them off the hook”. It doesn’t work in human court rooms, and based on the biblical evidence, I imagine it will not work in the divine courtroom.

    The other part that gets overlooked in these debates are God’s possible reasons for “hardening” people… eg Pharoah.

    Some vessels are for noble purposes, while others are for common purposes…. thats the thrust of Paul, Zechariah, and Jeremiah.

    It always boils down to teleological design and purpose. Love seems to have a purpose, mercy seems to have a purpose, judgement seems to have a purpose, and punishment seems to have a purpose in God’s grand plan.

    • Walter

      2) There is nothing wrong or immorral with cutting a guy a break for something they are guilty of, while choosing to impose punishment on another person for the exact same offence….. that is what makes mercy… mercy.

      The problem here is that Calvinism posits a meticulously controlling God who decrees everything that happens down to the nth degree; thus people sin because God has decreed beforehand that they would sin. It may be “merciful” for this deity to not punish some for crimes that they were determined by Him to commit, but just how merciful is He acting towards the guy or gal standing next to you, who God sovereignly determined would be an unrepentant criminal slated for eternal punishment, just so that their punishment might make a lucky few folks feel more blessed since they caught a break?

      • pete

        I didn’t assert that God punishes people because it makes the objects of his mercy feel more loved/mercied upon…

        Although that is certainly a possibility that Paul lays forth in Romans 9.

        Secondly, God is infinitely merciful to the objects of his mercy. It is a category error to ask “how merciful is God to the guy sitting next to you?”

        Clearly, this entails that he is not merciful to them.

        In account for the bibilcal evidence, I see an identity congruence with the reprobate and “the vessels made for common purpose” (Romans 9:21, cf. 2 Tim 2:21)

        Secondly, your objection ignores the responsibility that each person has before God.

        It’s hard to claim that those who are punished did not deserve it. Those who are spared are grateful.

        Are you trying to tell me that God is not just in punishing sin, or do you take offence to God giving others mercy?

        When the requirements of mercy are repentance of sin (which is offensive and disgusting to God), and a lived faith/conformity to image of Jesus Christ (the Son of God, only sinless human ever, if everyone was like Jesus there would not be the problem of evil), how can you say that God’s will has not been made clear on this matter?

        How would you choose for God to correct people on this point?

        He did already come in the flesh and make this clear

        • Walter

          Secondly, your objection ignores the responsibility that each person has before God.

          It’s hard to claim that those who are punished did not deserve it. Those who are spared are grateful.

          Are you trying to tell me that God is not just in punishing sin, or do you take offence to God giving others mercy?

          Let’s analyze this. The reprobate is born *unable* to please God and refrain from sinning yet has to suffer punishment at God’s hands for doing that which they are unable to keep from doing, which an omnipotent God *secretly* willed them to do in the first place. Yes, I have a problem with God treating his children in this manner.

          • pete

            Well it might make you more comfortable to understand that the reprobate are not God’s children.

            Secondly, they want to hate God.

            • Walter

              Well it might make you more comfortable to understand that the reprobate are not God’s children.

              How is God creating a hopelessly doomed subset of people suddenly made more palatable if we conclude that God doesn’t even consider them to be his own? That is pretty disturbing. In fact, if this is true then I would consider it my moral duty to stand with the lost.

              Secondly, they want to hate God.

              Not so. Do you believe a pious Jew hates God? According to Calvinism the Jew is a reprobate, but hate God? I don’t think so.

              • pete

                Uh… that betrays a biblical ignorance

                Read Romans for Paul’s rejection of supercessionism.

                And your moral duty to stand with the lost? The lost, by definition, are those people who reject Jesus and the model he gives for ones life.

                So you must think its moral to not turn the other cheek, help the poor, bless those who curse you, do unto others as you would have done unto yourself, love God with all your being, love your neighbour as yourself, and lay down your life for a friend.

                You must also think its moral to worship idols (self included), and not reject lust, envy, greed, and pride, which by the way happens to fuel all the evil that people complain flies in the face of Gods existence.

                Further more, the lost, by definition, are those who CHOOSE to live in opposition to God’s will.

                If someone keeps poking the Lion, do we blame the Lion for being a Lion, and ripping the ignorant dolt to shreds?

                If you have a problem with a Calvinist election platform, I suggest that your efforts would be better spend identifying what “God hardening those he chooses to” entails.

                In Pharoahs case, I think that God’s presence in the miracles shown by Moses, caused prideful/idolatrous/arrogant Pharoah to not be submissive/shake his fist against God….. of his own choice.

                • Walter

                  Further more, the lost, by definition, are those who CHOOSE to live in opposition to God’s will…

                  If Calvinism is true, people hate God because God first *willed* them to hate him. Calvinists want to believe in a meticulously controlling God until it comes to sin, then suddenly humans become free moral agents who freely choose to hate God and do bad things. In other words, you want God to be completely sovereign except when it no longer suits you for God to be sovereign and in complete control.

                  Uh… that betrays a biblical ignorance

                  Hardly. I was raised evangelical and I remained one for thirty years. I am far from ignorant of what the bible says, it’s just that I no longer believe that it is anything more than the words of men. I don’t believe the bible is an inerrant oracle book handed down from heaven.

                  • Robert

                    Walter correctly observed:

                    “If Calvinism is true, people hate God because God first *willed* them to hate him. Calvinists want to believe in a meticulously controlling God until it comes to sin, then suddenly humans become free moral agents who freely choose to hate God and do bad things. In other words, you want God to be completely sovereign except when it no longer suits you for God to be sovereign and in complete control.”

                    That is a very good observation Walter. I have seen the same thing innumerable times. The theological fatalists wants to believe that God decided every detail beforehand and then by controlling all things, ensures that everything goes as He prescripted them to go. If this is true, then God is the author of sin, God preplanned every sin and evil. So God desired for every person who has an evil thought to have that specific evil thought. So God desired for every person who has a false, mistaken or evil belief or desire to have those specific evil beliefs and desires.

                    And yet most theological fatalists are not consistent with their own belief. So they start talking as if sinners “sin on their own” (rather than being predestined to do so and being controlled to do their every act of sin). As if sinners are actual personal agents freely choosing to sin and rebel against God. But if their controlling belief (that all is predestined) is true, then who is controlling people and so forcing them to do whatever he predestined for them to do? If their controlling belief is true, then we are all just puppets under the continuous, complete and direct control of the divine puppet master.

                    If you want to see whether a theological fatalist is consistent or not, just look at whether or not their predestination of all events applies to sin and reprobation. Very few are consistent in these areas. Most instead engage in semantic game playing and various subterfuges to avoid the logical implications of their own controlling presupposition (that God predestines all events and controls all events).

                    Robert

                  • pete

                    Nope… just ignorant on Paul/Bible teaching that Jews are reprobate.

                    Romans 11 makes it clear that the inclusion of Jews into the New Covenant is part of the eschatological puzzle.

                    As far as free will goes, I am a compatibalist. If the person wills to do it, they are free.

                    I do recognize that God is the prime mover. So yes, he hardens hearts.\

                    I will admit that I don’t know the mystery by which God reconciles his love, will, and election.

                    However, that part is not revealed to me. For me, repentance of sin and faith in Jesus is what I am told, so that is how I try to live.

                    • Walter

                      Nope… just ignorant on Paul/Bible teaching that Jews are reprobate.

                      Romans 11 makes it clear that the inclusion of Jews into the New Covenant is part of the eschatological puzzle.

                      That has nothing to do with what I was saying. I am referring to Jews who reject belief in Jesus as the messiah. They are reprobate by your standards, yet they obviously love and worship Yahweh. So much for the mistaken belief that all reprobates hate God.

                      As far as free will goes, I am a compatibalist. If the person wills to do it, they are free.

                      But the Calvinist God controls the will of man, so the reprobate is free to act on his will, he’s just not free to choose what he wills. This is not true freedom, as I see it.

                    • Robert

                      Walter quoted Pete as saying:

                      “As far as free will goes, I am a compatibalist. If the person wills to do it, they are free.”

                      Walter then responded:

                      “But the Calvinist God controls the will of man, so the reprobate is free to act on his will, he’s just not free to choose what he wills. This is not true freedom, as I see it.”

                      Walter you are absolutely correct. If God controls the will of a person (as consistent calvinists/theological fatalists believe), then they are not acting freely.

                      If another person controls my will, then I am most definitely not acting freely.

                      This is one of reasons why Kant famously referred to “compatibilism” as “that wretched subterfuge” (and William James called it a “quagmire of evasion”).

                      It is a semantic trick and extremely unpersuasive to claim that another person controls your will and yet you are acting “freely.”

                      If we viewed a puppet show in which a puppet was “acting” and yet we also knew (and perhaps even saw) that the puppet was completely being controlled and manipulated by a puppet master via a set of strings. Would we by any stretch of the imagination claim that the puppet was acting freely?

                      Yet this is precisely what consistent Calvinism/theological fatalism claims (and wants us to believe): that we are puppets of a divine puppet master whose wills are directly, continuously and completely controlled by the puppet master and yet we are acting freely.

                      It seems both obvious and reasonable to believe that you are only acting freely if your will is not being controlled by another person.

                      Robert

                • Ryan

                  “If someone keeps poking the Lion, do we blame the Lion for being a Lion, and ripping the ignorant dolt to shreds?”

                  Apparently if the Lion is the “reprobate” you’re referring to and God is the one doing the poking then – Yes, we do blame the Lion.

                  • Robert

                    Ryan you wrote:

                    “Apparently if the Lion is the “reprobate” you’re referring to and God is the one doing the poking then – Yes, we do blame the Lion.”

                    So you suggest that we “blame” the reprobate rather than God for their sin and rebellion against God?

                    Do you at the same time believe that God prescripted every thought and action of every “reprobate”?

                    If you do, that reminds me of something a friend of mine said recently in discussing theological fatalism. He was talking about how if theological fatalism/calvinism were true (i.e. If we were all like puppets being controlled by the divine puppet master) then God prescripted the thoughts of the most evil people that we know of.

                    My friend in the context of discussing theological fatalism/calvinism wrote, and note especially his question:

                    “in that according to determinism, all human “monsters” are monsters by decree (it’s amazing that in a discussion with Calvinists that you have to remind them that they are Determinists), with said “monsters” having no independent thoughts of their own, no rogue or unscripted thoughts, ever, from cradle to grave, and in fact, that’s what cuts right through the “1st causes / 2nd causes” nonsense. To illustrate, if every thought that Hitler ever conceived, was a thought that God precisely scripted for him to think, would you think that *he* is the monster, or rather that he is the puppet of the monster?”

                    So who should really be blamed, the puppet who acts like a monster, that has to do what it does, that has no choice?

                    Or the puppet master who predestines and controls the puppet (controlling them so that they act like a monster)?

                    Robert

                    • Ryan

                      Robert,

                      I was pointing out what seems to me to be a contradiction in the above post by pete.

                      If God makes people (Lions) behave contrary to his commands (essentially prodding them) it doesn’t stand to reason in my mind that we should blame the people (Lions) as it would seem pete is trying to suggest.

            • http://travelah.blogspot.com/ A.M. Mallett

              You willfully hated God before being saved. What was your excuse?

  • pete

    Another thing that we overlook:

    The biblical requirement to conform to the image of Christ seems quite clear in scripture.

    When comparing ourselves to Christ, I would hope that we notice that some of our formative “character building” events happen to come out of other people treating us like garbage.

    While we hope that all will repent, some will not. Notwithstanding, it is some of the horror and abuse we endure that helps chisel this Christ like character…. it seems that people like Pharoah carved out some of this character in the ancient Hebrews, and through him God’s glory was revealed.

    Once the tool was used, and had no further good use, it was discarded.

    Just like Jesus talks about the useless vines being bundled up for burning at the end of this age.

    Can the wicked (all of us who don’t repent) have any further use to God, after they have fully chiseled out the image of his Son amongst his adopted children, other than repentance?

    If they do not glorify God through repentance, the only way it appears they can glorify God is through their eschatological defeat.

    This defeat is eternal, and hence is the glorification…..

    I’m not reveling in this fact, nor do I get a sick pleasure out of it. It’s a hard lesson.

    However, it appears consistent with the Trinune God’s teleological purposes of fellowship with the elect, ultimate justice, and ultimate glory.

    If there is a better account for the biblical evidence, I’m all ears.

    However, I will credit the Arminian for living out a more “Joban Theology” while we Calvinists sometimes run the risk of being “Job’s friends”… I don’t want my potential faulty interpretations to be cause for divine judgement/rebuke…..

    That’s why we should avoid dogmatism on God’s infinite love and justice, and leave it to the Judge himself to do right, while we humbly serve through evangelization and taking care of human need with love.

  • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

    Randal forgot to add *had to* to all of his examples.

    CASE 1: Willy Wonka choses some ungrateful, Wonka-hating individuals, like Davie, to share in the wonderful Wonka life, and Willy didn’t have to. Willy does so out of love.

    CASE 2: Willy chooses *every* ungrateful, Wonka-hating individual to share in the wonderful Wonka life, and Willy didn’t have to. Willy does so out of love.

    Randal set this up as the two options. But the Arminian option is more like this one:

    CASE 3: Willy chooses *every* ungrateful, Wonka-hating individual to share in the wonderful Wonka life . . . and he HAS TO. He also does so out of love . . .wha?

    On Calvinism, God didn’t HAVE TO love me, and ungrateful and God-hating person, but mysteriously and wonderfully chose to. On Arminianism, God HAD TO love me NO MATTER WHAT. Good, bad, in-between, it doesn’t matter.

    Warm and fuzzies may come in either CASE 1 or 2, not so much CASE 3, which is Randal’s case.

    • randal

      “CASE 3: Willy chooses *every* ungrateful, Wonka-hating individual to share in the wonderful Wonka life . . . and he HAS TO. He also does so out of love . . .wha?”

      Yes, God “has to” love his creatures out of the necessity of his perfect nature. What a terrible thing!

      Now let’s talk about the point of the post. Do you think it makes sense that Davey’s joy should be greater in virtue of knowing some children were not offered a ticket?

      • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

        I did’t say it was a “terrible” thing. But it kind of removes the graciousness of grace. God: “Here is the FREE GIFT of grace that I HAD TO give you.”

        The point: Yes, I think it makes sense, especially when you consider how serious a thing sin is. His sense of appreciation and gratitude, especially as he sees the fate others suffer that he should have rightly, deservedly, and justly suffered had God not had mercy on him and set his salvific love on him.

        You’ll just have to understand that people have different intuitions than you on this, and that they’re “not as crazy as you think” for having them. :-)

        • randal

          “But it kind of removes the graciousness of grace.”

          We talked about this a couple weeks ago in the blog. The point of grace is that it is undeserved mercy. And that’s fully consistent with divine omnibenevolence.

          “You’ll just have to understand that people have different intuitions than you on this, and that they’re “not as crazy as you think” for having them.”

          I agree 100 percent. I always approach these conversations as a good defense attorney (or prosecutor as the case may be), recognizing that while I am arguing one case, I could well be wrong. But my commitment to putting on the best possible case is part of the integrity of the whole process by which we all corporately arrive at a greater understanding of truth.

          You’re not crazy Paul, just a bit off. ;)

      • Robert

        Hello Randal,

        The more I see calvinism/theological fatalism in action the more pathetic and gruesome it seems. Most Christians across all theological traditions have no problem affirming that God loves the world (not just a small preselected elite). And because of this love the incarnation, ministry, and death of Jesus on the cross took place. But the theological fatalist cannot stand these simple and biblical notions and so must argue against them in any way that they can (all in support of a system of theology that is both unbiblical and rejected by the vast majority of Christians).

        Here Paul Manata who apparently is devoting his life to defending theological fatalism/calvinism via philosophy, wants to argue that if God HAS TO love all people (because His nature is love) that is something worse than if God loves only some people but freely does so (i.e. Manata’s calvinism).

        This is creating a caricature and making an error in arguing that God does not act freely, but that His actions are necessitated by his nature. It leaves out the reality/and alternative possibility, that God has free will and acts freely, though he acts in line with His nature.

        Theological fatalists in desiring to prove that the actions of a person are necessitated, will argue that a person’s nature necessitates particular actions that that person does. But this commits an error. A person’s nature puts constraints upon their actions, but does not necessitate particular actions if that person is acting freely.

        Example – Take a perfect parent whose nature is perfect love for their child. It is Christmas so the parent desires to give presents to their child. If that parent has free will, their loving nature constrains their actions but does not necessitate particular actions. So say there are 10 gifts this parent is considering to give as presents ( and say that all of them come from a heart that loves the child, so all ten possible choices involve love on the part of the parent, so all ten choices would be in line with the parents loving nature). But if that parent freely chooses to give gifts A, B, and C rather than gifts D, E, F, etc. Was the giving of those particular presents necessitated? Did the parent have to give A, B, and C? Did their loving nature necessitate the giving of A, B, and C rather than the other alternative possibilities? Or is it the case that whether the parent gave A, B, and C or gave D, E, and F, or gave G, H, I, J, in each case the particular choice was loving and also not necessitated? Seems to me the same is true of God.

        While his nature is love (as is explicitly and repeatedly stated in scripture). His **nature** does not **cause particular choices** that he makes: rather, his particular choices are constrained by his nature. Or take the creation of the world. God’s nature is rational. So whatever creation God decides to create is going to be rational (it cannot be an irrational world, His nature would not allow for that). And yet God’s rational nature itself does not dictate His particular actions.

        So Randal I would say that while God is love, He also has free will and so his individual actions while involving love are not caused by or necessitated by his loving nature.

        Put simply a person’s nature does not necessitate their actions, rather, a person’s particular acts are in line with their nature.

        This also relates to grace which refers to actions which are not deserved or merited by a person. Based upon our sins God is fully justified in condemning us for our sins (if strict justice alone were operating). But because God is not only just he is also loving, he provides for a way in which sinners may be reconciled with Him. The way provided was neither merited nor earned by sinners. And yet since the way provided involves actions on the part of God that are not deserved, it is grace. And since all deserve punishment for their sins, and yet God provides the way of salvation for all, God has grace for all. Manata like many theological fatalists, fails to distinguish the particular actions chosen by a person from their nature so he then caricatures the non-Calvinist view as God HAS TO love sinners (as if God’s nature forces or necessitates God’s particular actions: as if God is held captive by a separate power His nature which controls Him). But God not only has a nature he also acts freely in line with his nature. So it is a caricature to say that God HAS TO love us, that he has no choice (that it is his **nature forcing him** to do particular actions). Instead the truth is that since God is love, since that is His nature, and since he acts in line with his nature, He chooses to love all people and demonstrates this love by giving Jesus to die as an atonement for the world.

        Robert

        • http://travelah.blogspot.com/ A.M. Mallett

          Actually, the classical Arminian position on whether God is freely good or is such by necessity was deemed by Arminius to fall on the side of necessity due to the very character of a Holy God. He addressed this topic in his Apology (Article 22). Of course some Arminians will disagree.

          http://wesley.nnu.edu/arminianism/the-works-of-james-arminius/volume-1/the-apology-or-defense-of-james-arminius/

        • randal

          The only quibble I have is on calling Calvinism “fatalism”. That is to saddle the Calvinist with a hard determinist position that they explicitly reject. (At least for the mainstream forms of Calvinism with which I’m familiar.) Thus, if Calvinism is true then fatalism is false.

          • Robert

            “The only quibble I have is on calling Calvinism “fatalism”.”

            Randal it really depends upon the definition of “fatalism” which you are using.

            If you define it as the idea that one can do opposite actions and it does not matter because the outcome will be the same. Then, No, I would not refer to Calvinism as fatalism BY THAT DEFINITION.

            On the other hand, a friend of mine, who I both trust and consider to be a real authority in discussions of free will, compatibilism, etc., an extremely competent philosopher in this area, defines fatalism in a way which does in fact perfectly apply to consistent calvinism.

            John Martin Fischer defines fatalism as: “I now wish to sketch an argument for fatalism and compare it with the first version of the Basic Argument. Fatalism is the doctrine that it is a logical or conceptual truth that no person is ever free to do otherwise.”(p. 12, John Martin Fischer, GOD, FOREKNOWLEDGE, AND FREEDOM)

            Note his definition is simple, concise, clear, and unequivocal.

            So BY HIS DEFINITION consistent Calvinism ***is*** fatalism.

            Besides Fischer, another very good source when it comes to discussions of fatalism is Richard Taylor. He wrote an important paper on fatalism that generated **decades** of discussion (similar to the effects of Frankfurt’s paper and its Frankfurt cases). Recently a good book entirely on the subject of fatalism came out on this subject. The majority of the book is David Foster Wallace’s thesis which refuted the Taylor paper. The book also includes Taylor’s paper as well as other responses to it. In Wallace’s thesis he gives definitions of fatalism that are remarkably similar to Fischer’s definition.

            Wallace states: “so that it is necessary that whatever I do, O or O’, I do necessarily, and cannot do otherwise. . . . Hence fatalism: what I do is necessary, what I do not do is impossible, what does and will happen is not at all in my control.” (p. 146, David Foster Wallace, Fate, Time, and Language: AN ESSAY ON FREE WILL)

            And;

            “First, it may appear to accord exactly with the fatalist’s thesis that everything that occurs necessarily and that everything that does not occur cannot possibly occur; that is, it might be claimed that in developing a semantics to defuse Taylor’s semantic argument for the metaphysical doctrine of fatalism, I have somehow semantically stumbled into accepting precisely the most distasteful metaphysical claims of the fatalist.(p.194, David Foster Wallace, Fate, Time, and Language: AN ESSAY ON FREE WILL)

            According to these philosophers, who are all trustworthy sources regarding the issue of fatalism and all speaking specifically in the context of philosophical discussions of fatalism. By their definition of “fatalism” calvinism ***is*** fatalism.

            “That is to saddle the Calvinist with a hard determinist position that they explicitly reject. (At least for the mainstream forms of Calvinism with which I’m familiar.)”

            Randal I think you have to differentiate between (1) what they claim about their position on the one hand (i.e. “we are not fatalists, we are not hard determinists”) and (2) the logical implications of their position on the other hand (i.e. if God predestines all events and controls people to ensure that everything goes according to plan, then we do not have free will as ordinarily understood, in fact we never even have a choice, we make choices but never have choices, which according to Fischer and Wallace **is** fatalism, this is a position where one can never do otherwise, all of one’s actions are necessitated and Fischer’s definition fits it perfectly).

            “Thus, if Calvinism is true then fatalism is false.”

            Thus if Fischer’s definition is used for fatalism, then Calvinism ***is*** fatalism and if true then fatalism is true.

            Robert

            • randal

              You quote Fischer as saying fatalism “is the doctrine that it is a logical or conceptual truth that no person is ever free to do otherwise.” I presume that is free to do otherwise than what they do. This statement is ambiguous and, in my view, unhelpful. Most Calvinists I meet are of the view that God determines the choices of creatures in such a way that their free will is established, not overruled, through God’s determining decree. And that means they are compatibilists and soft determinists who believe we have free will and moral culpability and that fatalism is false. For an Arminian to call a Calvinist a fatalist is tantamount to a Calvinist calling an Arminian a (semi)Pelagian. Since I don’t like being called a semi-Pelagian I don’t call Calvinists fatalists.

              • Robert

                “You quote Fischer as saying fatalism “is the doctrine that it is a logical or conceptual truth that no person is ever free to do otherwise.” I presume that is free to do otherwise than what they do. This statement is ambiguous and, in my view, unhelpful.”

                How is it ambiguous Randal? If all is decreed, then we may engage in the MAKING of choices, but we never ever HAVE A CHOICE (i.e. where we could actualize either of two or more alternative possibilities that are accessible to us). If all is decreed, then my writing of these words is decreed as is the exact wording that I am using here as well. If that is the case, then it is true that I do not have the freedom to do otherwise (nor do you or anyone else for that matter). If all events are predestined, then Fischer’s definition kicks in: “it is a logical or conceptual truth that no person is ever free to do otherwise.”

                Ask any consistent Calvinist whether or not we can ever do otherwise in this particular world than what God has decreed: they will answer No. They will further add if pressed about how anyone could do otherwise, that the only way that you could have done otherwise in any choice you make in this particular world: is if God had decreed otherwise. For the consistent Calvinist everything is indexed on the decrees of God. God alone has free will, God alone **has** choices (e.g. he could decree that I wrote this post or decree that I did not decree this post, depending upon what actual world he wanted to actualize),everyone else is doing what they were prescripted to do.

                It is like an author of a novel. The author decides the characters, the thoughts and actions of each of the characters, the plot, the entire story to the most minute detail. Can any of the characters do otherwise than what the author decided they will do in that particular story? No. They could only do otherwise if the author had written a different novel. For theological fatalists it is all about what God decreed beforehand. What he decrees will occur, has to occur, is impossible not to occur. Everything is decided first in the divine mind and then actualized as what we call history.

                If you want it put more simply, in the ordinary view of free will, it means that at least sometimes we can do otherwise, that we sometimes have a choice. I prefer to talk about it in terms of HAVING A CHOICE versus merely MAKING A CHOICE. If I acted freely in writing this post, then I had the choice to write this post or not write this post. I had the choices of what specific words would be used and which would not be used. I had these choices and they were up to me. If on the other hand, all is predestined by God. Then my belief that I had these choices is false. My belief that I HAD CHOICES is illusory.

                If all is predestined, then I NEVER HAVE A CHOICE. And never having a choice is precisely what Fischer’s definition refers to. Wallace said the same thing, that if fatalism were true then we could not do otherwise ( “so that it is necessary that whatever I do, O or O’, I do necessarily, and cannot do otherwise. . . .).

                Wallace also correctly sees that if fatalism is true then “what I do is necessary, what I do not do is impossible,” And isn’t that exactly what would be true if all were predestined?
                In that case, whatever I do, whether it is O or O1, I would do it necessarily and I would not be able to do otherwise than what God predestined for me to do.

                And note Wallace’s statement that: “First, it may appear to accord exactly with the fatalist’s thesis that everything that occurs necessarily and that everything that does not occur cannot possibly occur.”

                Isn’t that exactly what a consistent calvinist believes?

                That everything that does not occur in this world cannot possibly occur UNLESS God had decreed differently, unless God had decreed a different world?

                “Most Calvinists I meet are of the view that God determines the choices of creatures in such a way that their free will is established, not overruled, through God’s determining decree.“ And that means they are compatibilists and soft determinists who believe we have free will and moral culpability and that fatalism is false.”

                Most calvinists claim to be compatibilists/soft determinists because they want to believe that all is predestined and yet simultaneously believe that people have “free will.” You may not want to accept this Randal, but part of it is for the sake of propaganda. They don’t want to be forthright and say that no one ever has choices and that everything is decided by God. If they did so, no one would want to **convert to Calvinism**. And make no mistake it is about **conversions**. Just look at how they describe their coming to embrace the so-called “doctrines of grace.” They sound like the old line Pentecostals used to sound when they rejoiced about receiving the baptism of the Spirit/the gift of tongues (they claimed that their whole Christian life and thinking changed as a result of this second experience). Likewise with theological fatalists who start out as non-Calvinist Christians and later “convert” to THE faith. You get the same “us versus them” division and the same desire to convert every other Christian to your view.

                But in this way of thinking, “free will” must be redefined not as HAVING A CHOICE (which is the ordinary understanding of most people) but as doing what you want to do while not being coerced (cf. Hume’s views on free will) without being able to do otherwise (Heaven forbid! can’t allow for that since everything is predestined by God! :-) ). And that is just it, if we can only do what we want to do, but we cannot do otherwise, then Fischer’s definition kicks in.

                Again depending upon how fatalism is defined. If fatalism is defined as Fischer defines it (which means that one never ever has a choice if fatalism is true), then any view that results in the conclusion that we can never do otherwise is fatalism.

                “For an Arminian to call a Calvinist a fatalist is tantamount to a Calvinist calling an Arminian a (semi)Pelagian. Since I don’t like being called a semi-Pelagian I don’t call Calvinists fatalists.”

                Again it depends upon the definition that you are operating with. Regarding Fischer’s definition, say that instead of him calling it fatalism, he called it “blip”. Would it then be acceptable to say that calvinism is “blip”? I really don’t care what you call it, I am more interested in the concepts themselves. But I know that if it (that everything is predestined by God) is true, then we would never ever HAVE A CHOICE (cf. “it is a logical or conceptual truth that no person is ever free to do otherwise.”). If it is true then we are never free to do otherwise. Connecting the dots, Fischer defines fatalism as never having the freedom to do otherwise. The phrase never having the freedom to do otherwise is equivalent to us NEVER EVER HAVING A CHOICE. Consistent Calvinism if true means that since everything is predestined by God we never ever have a choice. So consistent Calvinism results in the reality that we never ever have a choice (which is precisely what Fischer and Wallace define as fatalism.

                Regarding using terms in a pejorative way, such as “semi-Pelagian”, that also depends how things are defined. Randal if you spend any time around calvinists you find they are constantly defining things and redefining things, so that their view is promoted and defended and other views are caricatured and maligned (hence Arminians are depending upon which calvinist you speak to, variously referred to as Pelagian, Semi-Pelagian, apostates, a short step away from Rome, “man-centered”, Humanists, reprobates, deceivers, false teachers, etc. etc. etc. etc.).

                Randal perhaps you have been sitting around the fire too long singing Kumbaya with calvinists, so you haven’t had calvinists label you with such pejorative terms (actually that is not true since I have seen calvinists tag you as liberal, an inerrancy denier, incompetent philosopher and an unbeliever).

                I say define your operating terms up front, then use them. As Fischer and Wallace define fatalism as the absence of the ability to do otherwise, which does apply perfectly to consistent Calvinism, I will continue to use those definitions in reference to consistent calvinism.

                Robert

            • Adam Omelianchuk

              Robert,

              You are presupposing incompatiblism in your argument, which is precisely the view of freedom Calvinists reject. Fatalism is a problem for those who think LFW and divine foreknowledge are compatible. Open theists and Calvinists think they are incompatible. Calvinists go on to describe their view of freedom in a different way. They could care less if people can’t do otherwise.

              • Robert

                Hello Adam,

                Adam wrote:

                “You are presupposing incompatiblism in your argument, which is precisely the view of freedom Calvinists reject.”

                And the problem with that is?

                Fact is, everyone presupposes things when they argue, there are no unbiased and completely objective persons out there. Most people have very obvious axes to grind and they are spending most of their time grinding them! :-) Their motto appears to be “don’t confuse me with the facts my mind is already made up!” :-) The claim of total objectivity and unbiased reasoning is a myth.

                Instead since I believe everybody is biased, I say get the presuppositions/biases out there in the open and then compare them with the available evidence to see what is the best available explanation for a particular phenomena. See which alternative explanation best fits the available evidence (and that evidence includes the bible, our own daily experience, etc.).

                “ Fatalism is a problem for those who think LFW and divine foreknowledge are compatible.”

                Depends how fatalism is defined.
                As Fischer and Wallace define it, it applies to views that eliminate our being able to do otherwise (and that includes consistent Calvinism).

                “Open theists and Calvinists think they are incompatible.”

                We have not been talking about the compatibility of free will and exhaustive divine foreknowledge here, or have we? :-)

                “Calvinists go on to describe their view of freedom in a different way.”

                I am well aware of that. They want a description which is compatible with their belief that God predestines every event. Since libertarian free will does not fit that they reject LFW. So they instead hold onto compatibilism (defining acting freely as doing what you want and not being coerced when you do your action).

                “They could care less if people can’t do otherwise.”

                THEY could care less, is true.

                But my more important concern is not THEM but in reaching the man on the street, the so-called Christian laymen: WHO DOES CARE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THEY EVER HAVE CHOICES.

                For most people (and that includes our entire legal system, as well as most religious people who believe that people’s actions merit praise and blame) it is very important to them that it be true that they sometimes have choices and their choices are up to them. Most people get very concerned when told that they lack free will, that their brains, or their environment or their DNA, or God necessitates their actions and thus they do not have free will.

                Perhaps the theological fatalists/Calvinists do not care, but EVERYBODY ELSE DOES!!!!!!!!

                Robert

      • Richard Coords

        Randal,

        One thought to add: If I said to you that you *had* to love your son or that you *had* to love your daughter (if you have a son or daughter), you would say that we don’t have to *make* you do this, but that you freely do it, since they are your children. Well at Acts 17:28-29, the apostle Paul confirmed to the Athenians that we are indeed God’s children. That’s how God looks at us, and God has evidenced His love for us, by giving us the greatest gift that He could ever give, namely, the gift of His Son Jesus. So by saying that God *must* love all men, that is simply an echo of God’s own stated Word at John 3:16 and God’s own deeply held view, in declaring us to be His kids. Moreover, if God loved us so much that He did not withhold His Son Jesus (the greatest thing), then how much more willing is He to give us the infinitely lesser things, such as the necessary and sufficient grace to receive His love?

        • randal

          “If I said to you that you *had* to love your son or that you *had* to love your daughter (if you have a son or daughter), you would say that we don’t have to *make* you do this, but that you freely do it….”

          Darn right. It is a very curious theology that seems to sacrifice omnibenevolence on the altar of voluntarist autonomy.

  • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

    We talked about this a couple weeks ago in the blog. The point of grace is that it is undeserved mercy. And that’s fully consistent with divine omnibenevolence.

    Sorry, haven’t been keeping up :-) Well, for starters, I don’t think ‘grace’ is ‘undeserved mercy’ in the first place. Aside from that, why isn’t it ‘deserved’ mercy? Don’t humans deserve it in virtue of their being fallen and in need of salvation? Isn’t it more like the good samaritan? That man, bloodly, half-dead, and in need of help, *deserved* to be helped by the good samaritan. Moreover, Paul calls it a ‘free gift.’ How is something a free gift if the giver HAS TO give it? Isn’t that like calling my tax return a GIFT? I always thought the Christian tradition had it that God didn’t HAVE TO give us grace. He didn’t HAVE TO save us, or even try. A being that didn’t have to save a person who did something to deserve not being saved, and hated the potential savior, but yet did so as a free gift and expression of love seems more gracious and loving than a being who HAD TO love and (try) to save you.

    • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

      Funny how these things work out: The Calvinist is arguing for the thesis that God doesn’t HAVE TO salvifically love fallen humans, and the Arminian that God did HAVE TO. But when it comes to humans, the Calvinist argues that God so works in some fallen humans such that they HAVE TO love God, and Arminians claim this makes a mockery out of love. You can always count on an Arminian to protect the honor and dignity of humans. ;-)

      • Robert

        Manata wrote:

        “Funny how these things work out: The Calvinist is arguing for the thesis that God doesn’t HAVE TO salvifically love fallen humans,”

        I also claim that God doesn’t HAVE TO love people, but he freely chooses to do so in line with his loving nature.

        “and the Arminian that God did HAVE TO.”

        I and many other Arminians do not claim that God HAS TO love people, but that he freely chooses to do so. I also suggest that He has mercy on whomever he wants to have mercy on (which he then says is everyone, Romans 11:32). So **both** God’s love and mercy towards all sinners is not necessitated but freely chosen. We are fortunate that God has such an awesome and great nature. It makes Him worthy of our worship and commitment.

        “But when it comes to humans, the Calvinist argues that God so works in some fallen humans such that they HAVE TO love God, and Arminians claim this makes a mockery out of love.”

        We say that it “makes a mockery out of love” because if theological fatalism is true, then every event is predestined and humans do not have free will as ordinarily understood. If we do not have free will, and our every action is prescripted by God, then this does make a mockery of love (and everything else that normally involves free will) because in this puppet world every action is a ***necessitated*** action.

        So God “works in some fallen humans, such that they HAVE TO love God” and works in other fallen humans such that they HAVE TO rebel against God and reject Him for their entire life times. Yes, I would say THAT (theological fatalism) does make a mockery out of love and lots of other things as well.

        And that is again why most people reject theological fatalism; it makes a mockery out of God’s character, out of the bible, out of our daily experience. Like a universal acid it destroys everything that it touches.

        Robert

      • Richard Coords

        To PM,

        If we agree that God has bound Himself to His Word, then the real question is this: “What has God committed Himself to?”

        If God declared a love for “the world,” manifested in the gift of His Son, then God *must* love all men, insomuch that God *must* live up to His Word. Arminians are only holding God to His Word, which God is honored to keep. Calvinists are left trying to explain (through secret will explanations and “groups” explanations), that God couldn’t have meant what it seems like He said.

        So when you say that Arminians argue that God must love all men, what you really mean is that Arminians are holding God to His word.

    • Robert

      Manata writes:

      “Don’t humans deserve it in virtue of their being fallen and in need of salvation?”

      If God acted by strict justice then every sinful human person would deserve eternal punishment.

      But thankfully, and the bible makes a big point of this, God does not act by strict justice alone. Despite our sin, God chooses to have mercy upon all through Christ (cf. Romans 11:32).

      Nobody deserves the love of God or the grace of God and yet He chooses to love and have mercy towards sinners (again a big point made by the bible).

      “Isn’t it more like the good samaritan? That man, bloodly, half-dead, and in need of help, *deserved* to be helped by the good samaritan.”

      Actually if you read that parable closely Jesus contrasts the loving choice made by the Samaritan in contrast to the others who also could have made that choice but instead chose to simply pass him by. Jesus also by means of that parable was making the point that we should be loving to our neighbors (recall the religious expert had asked “who is my neighbor??). Jesus answered by presenting a person who at that time would have been hated by the religious types as the hero of his story because he obeyed the law in relation to his neighbor. It should also be remembered that God (at least as He is presented by the bible in contrast to the calvinist system of theology) is much more loving than any individual human person whether it be a Jew, Gentile or Samaritan.

      The same person who gave this parable also said that we were to love our neighbors because God does so as well in providing the rain for the just and the unjust. One of my problems with theological fatalism/calvinism is that we end up being more loving than God (i.e. we love our enemies, God hates his enemies which according to consistent calvinism is all nonbelievers/reprobates, we want to see others come to know Jesus out of love for them, God does not want most others to come to know Jesus, and with most makes sure they never have a chance to be saved, etc.)

      “Moreover, Paul calls it a ‘free gift.’ How is something a free gift if the giver HAS TO give it?”

      In the places where Paul contrast the **gift** of salvation with the wages of sin (constrasting justification by faith versus through the law). Paul is speaking of how God chose to have mercy towards sinners. The same apostle Paul says in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whomever he wants to have mercy upon (and then says later in the section, Romans 9-11 function as a unit) and that God chooses to have mercy on all (cf. Romans 11:32). Regarding God HAS To, I just explained this point in a previous post (i.e. God always acts in line with his nature, but his nature does not necessitate his particular choices, instead he freely chooses and his choices always involved his nature).

      “Isn’t that like calling my tax return a GIFT? I always thought the Christian tradition had it that God didn’t HAVE TO give us grace. He didn’t HAVE TO save us, or even try.”

      The Christian tradition is that God acts freely and always acts in line with his nature. So he has both a perfect nature and he also acts freely.

      Christian tradition is also that God loves the world, and that means all men not just some preselected lucky ones. Christian tradidtion also maintains that God provided Jesus as an atonement for the whole world (cf. 1 Jn. 2:2).

      If Manata wants to “talk” about Christian tradition, is he open to talking about the fact that for most church history calvinism/all forms of theological fatalism have been rejected by the church? That the vast majority of Christians (both currently and throughout church history) openly and repeatedly reject calvinism?

      “A being that didn’t have to save a person who did something to deserve not being saved, and hated the potential savior, but yet did so as a free gift and expression of love seems more gracious and loving than a being who HAD TO love and (try) to save you.”

      Again, God always acts in line with his nature, but his nature does not necessitate particular actions that God chooses to do.

      Robert

    • randal

      I don’t entirely follow your line of thought here Paul. But I’ll respond to this: “That man, bloodly, half-dead, and in need of help, *deserved* to be helped by the good samaritan.” Why do you think that? On the contrary, it would seem a proper analysis is not that he deserved to be aided but rather that an individual of a certain moral character would always stop and help an individual in need like that. It would be the most natural thing for him to extend grace to that individual by aiding him. Is your position that a fully sanctified human being would stop and help some people in need but not others?

  • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

    I would respond to you Robert, but you’d turn the discussion into a personal attack and bring up things about my past life apart from Christ, and hold and lord it over me. But you just told us about how we are supposed to treat our enemies. I won’t be dragged into a debate with someone who hates me. Dr. Rauser and I can have nice and civil back-n-forth’s, even if we trade barbs sometimes. You and I, not so much.

    • Robert

      At first I was going to leave this alone, but upon further reflection, I believe a response is warranted. Manata wrote:

      “I would respond to you Robert, but you’d turn the discussion into a personal attack and bring up things about my past life apart from Christ, and hold and lord it over me.”

      So far, I haven’t said anything ****in this thread**** that has been a personal attack of Paul Manata nor have I talked about his pre-conversion past whatsoever.

      And let’s say, to make a point, that I had done this in another thread BESIDES THIS ONE. Since I have not done anything like this in ****this**** thread, Manata opens the door to talk about past interactions by introducing other threads into evidence. AS when a Lawyer brings something into evidence, by doing so they invite the other side to then comment upon this issue as well. Manata instead of choosing to interact with anything that I said here in this thread in a rational and civil manner instead refers to another thread. But if he is going to do THAT, then am I not ALSO allowed to bring up other threads as well?

      I have my own reasons for being very hesitant to interact with Manata. Including multiple threads where he engaged in sock puppeting. Multiple threads where he engaged in hostile and very personal attacks of others (including me) with whom he disagreed. And these things did not occur in Manata’s “pre-conversion days”, but occurred **while he professes** to be a Christian.

      From Manata’s past comments towards me I am quite convinced that Manata has an intense hatred towards me. That is why, in my estimation, he appears to be projecting his own hateful attitude when he writes:

      “I won’t be dragged into a debate with someone who hates me.”

      Some observations:

      First, he betrays his own theological fatalism here because he speaks of his choice of not engaging in discussion with me as if it is something that he actually has a choice about (the choice he has being that he could choose not to be “dragged” into a debate with me and the other alternative possibility being that he could choose to be “dragged” into a debate with me: he speaks as if both possibilities are open to him and he has chosen not to be “dragged” in’; but in fact if his espoused theological fatalism is true then he has no choice in the matter and what he does was predestined for him to do so and he really had no choice in the matter). So note that this fully committed theological fatalist talks just like the rest of us as if he has choices and those choices are up to him. Listen to them talk and they always betray their espoused philosophy/theology, sooner or later.

      Second, I don’t hate Manata as a person though I have found many of his actions on the web (most notably the sock puppeting) to be without justification and sometimes disgusting. Manata appears to be intelligent and enjoys constructing arguments, if only these capacities were dedicated to supporting Christianity rather than Calvinism/theological fatalism.

      Third in his claim that he is hated by me, I could say the exact same thing about Manata based upon his conduct towards me in the past. He has said lots of hateful things towards me in the past. Based on numerous past incidents, it is dubious to believe that Manata could engage in a rational and civil discussion with me here. It is likely that if he attempted to do so his posts would inevitably result in his usual sarcasm, personal attacks, and other insults.

      I enjoy having civil and rational discussions with those who hold differing views as long as they **are** civil and rational. I teach and have taught in multiple contexts and always encourage diverse thinking on issues. You cannot properly and fruitfully discuss an issue unless differing, relevant and important perspectives are fairly and properly considered. Unfortunately, this kind of fruitful discussion does not usually occur when internet Calvinists are involved in a thread. They just become too hostile and too defensive and too contentious to have a good discussion with most of them (though there are exceptions).

      It is significant that recently Roger Olson over at his blog has given stricter guidelines to the discussions there aiming at lessening and eliminated the contentious and hostile postings of internet Calvinists (most internet Calvinists have never left what Phil Johnson [himself a Calvinist]) has appropriately termed “cage style Calvinism”). Olson has succeeded very well and his blog is much better and healthier in its discussions because of these guidelines.

      I’m all for civil and rational discussions (as all of us should be), unfortunately I am pessimistic that internet Calvinists are capable of it. Things may start fine but just give it time and they always seem to degenerate.

      Robert

      • http://www.drwayman.com drwayman

        Robert – I was thinking of a way to resolve the conflict between you and Manata but it would require cooperation from both of you that you want the conflict to end.

        You have laid out some things of which you believe that Manata has done. All Manata has to do is either: 1) 100% deny any involvement in what you believe he did, or 2) specifically acknowledge any involvement (from 1% to 100%) in what you believe he did.

        If Manata would do either of these two things, I would think that you would be willing to drop the issue and never bring it up again, right?

    • randal

      “Dr. Rauser and I can have nice and civil back-n-forth’s, even if we trade barbs sometimes.”

      I’ll second that. I do my best to keep Paul on the straight and narrow. But he seems *determined* to keep perpetuating his old errors. :)

  • http://analytictheologye4c5.wordpress.com/ PM

    Sorry, Randal, if I miss your posts in response to me. Last time I took a hiatus from your blog for about a month or so was when “Robert” came in and started name calling and making the issues personal. “See” you around. :-)

  • http://www.drwayman.com drwayman

    Robert – I do think that you point out a very fine but important distinction. God always acts freely in line with His nature. He is not enslaved to His nature.

  • Adam Omelianchuk

    “Absolutely. And when I do it actually means something because the cross of Christ actually bought the full redemption of those whom he chose to save unlike the view that you hold where the cross of Christ made salvation merely possible and then the rest is up to the sinner.”

    To David (because there is no reply button under what you wrote):

    That’s great, but this just leads back to my original question. How do you know Jesus died for you, specifically? If you do what I do, you are thinking like an Arminian. If you aren’t thinking like an Arminian, then you aren’t doing what I do and have some special insight into who is among God’s elect. How do you know you are one of the elect? Do you read your heart in a specific way that gives you this knowledge? If so, then you are in a position where you have to look inward to find out, and that is shaky ground if one is in the throws of self-doubt.

    • David J. Houston

      Adam,

      I’ve answered your question by informing you that if I can know that I have put my faith in Christ then I can know that I am elect. You responded by telling me that this makes me guilty of affirming the consequent but, as I said earlier, my reasoning is not if E then F, F therefore E but rather if and only if E then F, F, therefore E so I’m not guilty of fallacious reasoning. You then decided to try and undercut my belief that I can know that I have F by pointing out that it’s possible that I’m self-deceived in my belief that I have F. But this would apply to Arminians as well since they too could be deceived in their belief that they have F. So if the mere possibility that I might be deceived in my belief in F is an undercutting-defeater for my belief that I am E then the mere possibility that you might be deceived in your belief in F is enough to undercut your belief that you are saved. But I don’t think the mere possibility is enough to defeat our belief in either case so I reject both as failed arguments.

      Your doctrine of the atonement is irrelevant to my counter argument. Nor is it enough to say that God would not allow you to be deceived because the Bible is clear that that is not true (Mt 7).

      God bless.

      • Adam Omelianchuk

        DAVID: “I’ve answered your question by informing you that if I can know that I have put my faith in Christ then I can know that I am elect.”

        ADAM: That’s great. I accept this answer. It’s one that Arminians can agree with, but notice the object of faith is something like this: “Jesus is the son of God who died for my sins.” Why believe that if it’s possible that he didn’t, since the atonement is limited? I am sure you are aware that Calvinist evangelists don’t tell lost people that Jesus died for them, because who knows if he really did? I see no reason why this same agnosticism in evangelism doesn’t carry over into pastoral situations where one doubts their faith. In both cases saving faith is called for, and in both cases the object of faith is ambiguous.

        DAVID: my reasoning is not if E then F, F therefore E but rather if and only if E then F, F, therefore E so I’m not guilty of fallacious reasoning.

        ADAM: Fair enough. But the trouble with the biconditional is this: if one doubts that he has saving faith, then he doubts that he is specially loved by God and that Jesus died for him. This veils the object of faith and so undercuts the kind of faith needed to retain assurance. If this is not true, then the biconditional is false.

        DAVID: “But this would apply to Arminians as well since they too could be deceived in their belief that they have F.”

        ADAM: I have two responses to this. First, this is a red herring that doesn’t address the problem. Suppose you are no longer sure about your faith. You read Jonathan Edwards and come to see that maybe you lack some reliable signs of grace in your life, and there are other things that cause you to question your salvation. You don’t know if Jesus died for you, because you don’t know whether or not your faith is genuinely saving. You can’t say, “Ah well, Arminians can be unsure of themselves too, so it doesn’t matter.” That just evades the point, which is that the cross is no comfort to those who doubts their faith, because the cross doesn’t provide evidence that God loves them and that Jesus died for them.
        Second, I think it is false. The Arminian doesn’t buy into the biconditional you propose. Rather she holds to:

        For every x, if x will have faith in Christ, then x is loved by Christ and x is for whom Christ died.

        The conditional remains true even if the antecedent is false. Thus, the Arminian can find faith again, because the object of faith is not hidden from her behind a secret will that might be ultimately planning her destruction. I understand that you don’t find this comforting, because one could still fall away. Fair enough, but the reasons for falling away are found in the human, not in God. That’s why I think it matters. I’ll let you have the last word.

        • David Houston

          I don’t think it’s a problem that Calvinist evangelists don’t tell lost people that Jesus died for them. It’s perfectly Scriptural. Where do you see any evangelist in Scripture calling people to repent and believe because Jesus died for them? They just don’t. That came as a big shock for me when I started wrestling through these issues. I didn’t think that I had delivered the gospel to anyone until I had told them that Jesus had died for them but, if I had been right, that would mean that the apostles had never preached the gospel to anyone! So what did they say?

          The apostles told sinners to repent and believe in order to be saved. Believe in what you ask? That Christ lived a perfect life, died for sinners, and his sacrifice was accepted by the Father which is evidenced by his resurrection from the dead and that all who put their faith in the work of Christ for their salvation will be saved. That can be affirmed by both Arminian and Calvinist alike. If a person does repent and believe then they can be assured that Christ died for them. Even Randal doesn’t take issue with Calvinists at this point.

          Your responses to my claim that any undercutting defeater against Calvinism would function equally well against Arminianism just don’t cut it. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

          (1) I didn’t say that because a parallel objection can be raised against Arminianism that that should be comforting to the Calvinist.

          (2) I provided a tu quoque argument and since I think the initial argument is bad I also think the parallel argument is bad. Neither of us should believe that simply because it is possible that we could be deceived that we actually are deceived.

          (3) Again, I ask, how is the Arminian in better shape concerning his assurance when those in Hell can say in complete honesty that Jesus died for them. Arminians need to be diligent in making their calling and election sure just like everybody elese. (2 Pet 2:10)

          (4) Your statement that “the Arminian can find faith again, because the object of faith is not hidden from her behind a secret will that might be ultimately planning her destruction” is confused.

          (i) The Calvinist is not barred from ‘finding faith again’ if by ‘finding faith’ you mean returning to his former profession.

          (ii) I’d already addressed your object of faith objection above.

          (iii) The term ‘secret will’ is unfortunate. It makes it sound like you can’t know anything about what God really wants. Like he’s actually concealing his true intentions. But that’s simply not true. The ‘secret will’ is actually, in many cases, revealed. In some cases the ‘secret will’ is revealed in Scripture. At other times what at one time is hidden in the secret will of God is revealed in history. God is sovereign so everything that has ever happened once belonged to his secret will until it was revealed. For example, prior to April 12, 1917 it belonged to the secret will of God that the Canadian troops would win the Battle of Vimy Ridge but now that this great victory has occurred, the secret will of God concerning this event has been revealed. Likewise, God’s secret will to elect me was revealed in history when I bowed the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ after hearing a sermon preached by Billy Graham when I was twelve. I prefer descriptive will. For this reason, I believe the term ‘descriptive will’ is preferable.

          (iv) The descriptive will of God is not nearly so sinister as you seem to suggest. According to the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity, every person whose life has been planned for destruction hates God and does not every genuinely repent nor do they ever genuinely love God.

          • drwayman

            DH wrote: “”I don’t think it’s a problem that Calvinist evangelists don’t tell lost people that Jesus died for them… Where do you see any evangelist in Scripture calling people to repent and believe because Jesus died for them?”

            1st Corinthians 15:1-4: “Now I make known to you, brethren, THE GOSPEL which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, THAT CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SIN according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures….”

            When Paul said this, he was reiterating what he told them back when they were lost, unbelievers, having heard the gospel for the very first time. Since C’s admit that they don’t know who the elect are (and hence preach to all men, and in the sense of “all men” as in indiscriminately each individual that they meet whom they happen to share the gospel with, contradicting what they elsewhere state as the meaning of “all men,” as in just meaning “groups), therefore by C logic, Paul couldn’t have known which ones were of the secretly elect, and hence Paul must have preached to all men, indiscriminately, that Jesus died for them.

            • David Houston

              Dr Wayman,

              Yes, Paul told them that Christ died for you, brethren. He is speaking to believers. You assume that he told them that Christ died for them prior to their conversion but that is nowhere in the text. Why not read it as Christ died for whosoever believes and, by the grace of God, the Corinthians did believe so Paul could conclude that Christ died for them?

              BTW, not that it matters, but Randal, a Molinist, says that he holds to limited atonement, just like I do, so he must accept an explanation like the one that I have offered in order to remain consistent.

              Also, what do you make of these verses which seem to teach that Christ died specifically for the church, his bride, his flock, etc.:

              “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep…My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
              (John 10:11, 27-29)

              ‘Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her’
              (Ephesians 5:25)

              Now, you might say, as Arminians do, that there are other verses which seem to say that Christ died for ‘all’, for the ‘world’, and the like (which I don’t mind addressing). But first, let’s look at the nature of the atonement.

              What does it mean to say that Christ died for someone? What did he accomplish at the cross? The book of Hebrews gives us a fascinating insight into what happened when Jesus went to the cross:

              “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
              (Hebrews 10:10-14)

              The first thing to notice is what v14 says Christ has accomplished through the cross: “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” He has perfected those whom he has died for. This perfecting could be referring to the moral perfection of believers at the resurrection or it could be referring to their justification before God right now or both (which is my view). It also teaches that the cross has accomplished this perfection for all time. So if God has perfected you then this is for all time. It is not a fleeting thing. This fits nicely with John’s phrase that believers have been ‘born again’ and now have ‘eternal life’ rather than simply ‘life’ or ‘possibly temporary life’. It also speaks to the finality of the work of Christ. He accomplishes what he set out to do and then sits down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. But if the cross guarantees everlasting perfection it cannot be for everyone because we know that not everyone is saved. This is why the work of Christ is limited to those who are being sanctified. So the question is, who is being sanctified?

              When the Bible speaks of something being sanctified it means it is set apart for holy use. (Gen 2:3; Ex 29:43; Lev 8:30; Jer 1:5) Part of me just wants to end this right here since if something is being set apart for holy use then that means that it is set a part from other things which, in our present context, is non-believers. But let’s be thorough! Jesus, in his high priestly prayer, asks the Father to, “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.” (John 17:17) In other words, he wants the Father to set them apart from the world, which teaches lies and whose prince is Satan, to be in the truth, that is, in Christ who is ‘’the way, the truth, and the life’. (John 14:6) And who are the people being sanctified? Is it everyone? It couldn’t possible be since if you are in Christ you are not in ‘the world’, at least in the sense that John uses the term. (John 17:9, 20) It is only those who believe in the teaching that was given to the apostles who are being sanctified in the truth. It is for believers and only believers.

              So if in Hebrews 10:10-14 the perfecting is referring to justification and/or glorification and it is for all time and it is for believers then it appears that we have a passage that explicitly teaches limited atonement. In order to deny this you must provide an alternative reading that is consistent with the doctrine of universal atonement. It is not enough to simply bring up other passages that seem to say that the atonement is universal when this passage, that specifically addresses the atonement, has not been dealt with.

              God bless.

              • drwayman

                DH writes: “You assume that he told them that Christ died for them prior to their conversion but that is nowhere in the text.”

                With whom do you primarily share the Gospel? Is it believers or unbelievers?

                Second, Paul says that this is the Gospel message that he gave to them through which they had become “saved” (1Cor 15:2), and hence this absolutely ties to their conversion experience. In other words, this isn’t the Gospel that Paul gave to them after they graduated from seminary, or after they had become ordained ministers, or after they had wrapped up the Westminster series.

                No, this is the Gospel that he gave to them through which they had become “saved,” and which proves my assumption correct, in that this deals with their pre-conversion message. Paul defined the Gospel; the Gospel is shared with *unbelievers* through which they can become saved; by C standards, Paul couldn’t have known which unbelievers were of the secret Calvinistically elect; hence, by the instruction of the Apostle Paul, you can and must, include indiscriminately telling unbelievers that Jesus died for them, or else, you are not really sharing the Gospel with them after all.

                As to the other verses, Scripture affirms that, 1) Jesus died for the sins of the world (John 1:29), in which “the world” is the totality of mankind, as in, each individual member, 2) and hence any verse which attributes Calvary to a certain class of mankind, is speaking as a subset of those for whom Jesus died. Hence, Paul can say that Jesus died for him, without concluding that it is *only* Him.

                Additionally, I can say that Jesus died for me, because Jesus died for everyone. If Jesus did not die for everyone, then I have no basis to know for certain that He died for me in particular. Since no one can know if they are one of the secret elect until they have persevered until the end, no Calvinist has a basis to believe that Jesus died for them until they are in heaven.

                The purpose of Jesus’ death was so that people could be saved, and besides the faithful living at the time of Jesus, Abraham’s Bosom was already packed with the OT Saints, and add to that, those who hadn’t been born yet. So the purpose of Jesus’ death is to provide salvation, and those who believe in Him have fulfilled Calvary’s ultimate purpose, i.e. eternal life, salvation, redemption, ect.

                So you can speak of Jesus dying for the Church because that’s the ultimate purpose for providing salvation. As an illustration: You prepare a banquet in expectation that the food will be eaten. Some finish their plate, and some don’t eat at all. But you provided the meal so that people will be filled, and when someone comes up to you afterward and says, “thank you,” their gratitude made it all worthwhile, and you can genuinely answer back to them, “You’re welcome. I did it for you.” Obviously you provided a meal for everyone, so that anyone can be filled, but it’s ultimate purpose is achieved in those who eat.

                • David J. Houston

                  Hello Dr. Wayman,

                  (1) The gospel message to repent and believe for there is forgiveness in Christ for all who believe not that Christ died for them. Firstly, on your view of the atonement, that wouldn’t qualify as good news since Jesus died for everyone in Hell and see what good that did for them! Secondly, you’re confusing Paul’s explanation of the gospel to those he takes to be believers with the gospel he proclaimed to them before they were believers.

                  (2) If you want to say that the ‘world’ in John 1:29 refers to every individual then you have to accept universalism. You can’t say that Jesus took away the sins of everybody who has ever lived and that God still punishes some in Hell. That would mean Jesus already paid the price and that God is still demanding that the price be paid a second time which is unjust.

                  (3) You didn’t deal with my argument from Heb 10 regarding the nature of the atonement. Rather, you decided to provide your own unbiblical picture of the atonement that is incompatible with the scriptural teaching. Why should I bother working through your unbiblical analogy for the atonement when you won’t deal with my exegetical argument on the atonement?

                  (4) I believe that we can know that we are elect even before we reach Heaven. See my conversation with Adam at the top of the comment box to see how I argue that point.

                  God bless.

  • Robert

    Hello Ryan,

    “I was pointing out what seems to me to be a contradiction in the above post by pete.
    If God makes people (Lions) behave contrary to his commands (essentially prodding them) it doesn’t stand to reason in my mind that we should blame the people (Lions) as it would seem pete is trying to suggest.”

    Thank you for the clarification. And I agree strongly with your point: if God himself makes people act contrary to his commands, then they should not be blamed for their actions of disobedience. This is again a place where I find theological fatalism/calvinism to be totally wrong.

    If God predestines every event and controls people (their minds, thoughts, beliefs, desires, bodies, everything) ensuring that they sin. That leads to some really nasty consequences.

    For example, say God controls a Christian husband to commit adultery and the wife then finds out and this results in their divorce. And say this has some real emotional harm attached affecting the husband, the wife and their kids. Why would God desire and plan and then control his own people to make them sin against his own commands in this way? To do the very thing that He says that he hates? In what way does that bring glory to Him or please Him? Now this is one example, but if theological fatalism/Calvinism is true, then every time a believer sins their sin was predestined by God and God controls them in such a way as to ensure they commit that particular sin.

    This makes a mockery of the bible (because God says certain things displease Him and are evil, and yet he predestines EVERY SIN and violation of His commands and every evil thought and desire, and He controls people in such a way as to ensure that “everything goes according to plan”). This makes a mockery of God’s character (i.e. what does this say about his character if he desires for his own people to sin and controls them to make sure they do?). This makes our daily experience of having and making our own choices a sham, an illusion, a trick played on poor humans that God is merely toying with (i.e. it’s like those little boys who set up their “army men” and have them then “fight” as he picks them up and controls their every movement and location). I could go on but I am sure you get my point. Apparently, the same point that you were making Ryan.

    Robert

  • Jerry Shepherd

    Hi Randal,

    I’m primarily posting here just to make sure I get the followups. But I will make one comment. David, in reply to your comments about the marriage metaphor said,

    “Now Randal commits a level-confusion. At the figurative level, the marital metaphor is assuredly not a metaphor for polygamy or polyandry. It’s regularly contrasted with adultery or prostitution. At the metaphorical level, it does accentuate God’s unique love for Israel, in contrast to the pagans. His exclusive fidelity to Israel. The fact that the literal referent is plural doesn’t change the symbolic significance of the metaphor. At the metaphorical level, it’s the bride and the bridegroom–a one-to-one pairing. Moreover, the fundamental contrast is not between one and some, but between one and all. It still derives its force from the fact that Yahweh wedded Israel, in contrast to many others.”

    David is exactly right. The plurality in the bride of Christ in no way takes away from the logical use of the metaphor. You can’t shift metaphorical levels to deny the force of the argument on the original level.

    Blessings,

    Jerry

  • http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum Gene

    Wow Great discussion.

    PM, I don’t know what you did in your past but you’ve blessed me over the years though I disagree with your view on Calvinism.

    I’ll comment on “deserve”.

    I don’t think grace has to be a either/or situation regarding if salvation/love is deserved.

    I have a daughter. She doesn’t deserve my love nor does she not deserve my love. She’s my daughter and by nature I love her. I don’t see it that she had to do anything for me to love her. I will always love her no matter what she does (even the most atrocious evils) I can’t approve of evils she will commit, but I can understand that it is sin in her and not her (as Paul puts it in Romans 7). So it seems quite possible God’s loving us is not about deserve but about God’s character. If God is not love then no one would be saved. If God is not love and some are loved then there would be great confusion on how we define God as being love.