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    • Every community has controversies they don’t teach (or even tolerate)

    Every community has controversies they don’t teach (or even tolerate)

    November 10, 2011 / Randal Rauser / The Tentative Apologist / 31 Comments

    The Atheist Missionary replied to my post on Mike Licona and academic freedom as follows:

    “Licona’s experience is precisely why I am so dubious of relying on the opinion of Biblical scholars whose tenure is tied to adhering to the tenets of any particular religion.”

    Walter then chimed in:

    “Ditto. This is why I am underwhelmed by appeals to scholarly consensus on such issues as the historicity of the “empty tomb.””

    Finally, Steven Carr offered his two cents, tongue firmly in cheek:

    “But evangelicals do speak out for academic freedom. They live and breathe the motto ‘Teach the controversy’. Their whole raison d’etre is to examine controversy, bring it into the open and teach that there is a controversy.”

    Let’s begin with Steven’s facetious comment. It seems that evangelicals are happy to teach some “controversies”. But other controversies? Forget about it. (Or perhaps “Fuggedaboutit!”)

    My simple observation in response is that every community is open to the discussion of some controversies and not of others. This was a point I made briefly in my last post. I’ll say a bit more about it here.

    Picture a university in your mind. Let’s call it “Average University.” What does a potential new prof need to know about AU before they accept a job there?

    Let’s start with the Exxon Institute for Renewable Energy (EIRE). If you are an outside the box kind of thinker who is looking to wean civilization off fossil fuel then this is the place for you. The Institute was started with a sizable donation from, well who do you think? Consequently, while all sorts of lines of research are open at the EIRE, common sense tells the research fellows there are certain topics and lines of research that they don’t pursue, namely ones that would create embarrassment or liability for Exxon: you don’t bite the hand that feeds.

    Move over to the Political Science department. See that empty office down the hall? Dr. Speakshismind occupied it for the better part of a decade. And though he was a beloved teacher and had a stellar publishing record, he was denied tenure last year. The reason? That wasn’t made clear to the public. But ask the grad students and you’ll hear that he was too outspoken in his public criticism of the state of Israel and its settlements in Gaza.

    Over in the Department of Psychology you could have a lot of room to pursue your own line of resarch. Just don’t go on the record in criticism of the Chair of the Department’s controversial views on evolutionary psychology and rape. He doesn’t take kindly to criticism.

    As for the Economics Department, the more you say that is laudatory about the “Chicago School of Economics” the better. If you mention Naomi Klein’s book The Shock Doctrine make sure it is part of a punchline (everyone calls it The Schlock Doctrine). And don’t be too critical of the IMF or you’ll be blacklisted. When in doubt, remember that an unregulated economy is the solution to all our ills.

    However, the Department of History can’t stand the Poly-Sci or Economics Departments. Everyone in history sings the name “Howard Zinn”, while the economists deride them as “closet communists”. Needless to say, the last sessional who tried to use A Patriot’s History of the United States as a textbook was not invited back.

    The philosophy department is chock full of analytic philosophers (Heidegger is considered a bad joke) who are atheists. The last graduate student who was openly Christian only survived because she opted to write her thesis on environmental ethics. The departmental head recently referred to philosophy of religion as a complete waste of time.

    Finally, the Religion Department welcomes all different religious views, so long as the scholar in question believes that all religions are an expression of the ineffable one that transcends all things and which is actualizing the world into being (or something like that). Of course the philosophers think the religious scholars are just talking nonsense.

    It doesn’t matter where you go in the university: certain conversations are not tolerated. Diversity of opinion, academic freedom, so-called free thought, is always qualified. Needless to say, the same dynamic is at play in the work place and wider society. Thus, it is completely unfair to suggest that these dynamics are uniquely or especially operative in churches and para-church organizations.

     

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    Related posts:

    1. How do you teach God’s genocide to children?
    2. Teach your children well (and don’t mutiliate their corpses)
    3. As long as you teach the Bible, I have no problem with you.
    academic freedom, censorship, free speech
    • Crude

      Your examples could be multiplied historically, and broadened. Across political divides, certainly into scientific divides, social divides…

      I’m reminded of an XKCD joke, showing the reaction to a man doing some math wrong, and a woman doing a math problem wrong. The man is told, “Heh, you’re bad at math.” The woman is told, “Heh, women are bad at math.”

    • Jag Levak

      “every community is open to the discussion of some controversies and not of others.”

      Every one? So what controversies do you think atheists / skeptics don’t tolerate, or strive to suppress any discussion of?

      • Crude

        Well, we can start with the example of Paul Kurtz’s end at the CFI.

        • Jag Levak

          I’m not familiar with the particulars of the case. Was it an attempt to shut down or suppress discussion of something which atheists find too controversial?

      • Brad Haggard

        Jesus mythicists don’t seem to get along well with anyone else, for starters.

        • Jag Levak

          Whatever truth there may be in that, I think the relevant question is whether there are ideas which Jesus mythicists typically consider so controversial that they will not even brook discussion of them.

      • Jouras

        Creationism in public schools.

        • http://www.atheistmissionary.com/ The Atheist Missionary

          I was taught creationism in public school and I have no doubt that it helped me to become the freethinker that I am today.

          I remain firmly of the view that there is no greater threat to religious irrationality (and I am not suggesting here that all religious thinking is irrational) than the teaching of comparative religion to our children. People are surprised to find that I like to have my kids exposed to religion. The more the merrier I say.

        • Jag Levak

          “Creationism in public schools.”

          I don’t know of any atheists, skeptics, freethinkers, etc, who feel there should be no teaching about the Creationism battles in public schools, but that is a topic which properly belongs in a social studies, modern politics, or civics class venue. Excluding something which is clearly not science from being taught and represented as science is not censorship of a controversial idea, and from what I’ve seen, the atheist / skeptic community has been plenty willing to engage and discuss the ideas of Creationists.

    • Robert

      Dr. Norman Geisler said

      “… we do not wish to stifle scholarship but only to reject bad scholarship. Further, as Evangelicals we must beware of desiring a seat at the table of contemporary scholarship, which is riddled with presuppositions that are antagonistic to Evangelical Christianity. Indeed, when necessary, we must place Lordship over scholarship” (emphasis mine)

      If the presuppositions that [many?] contemporary scholars hold are in error, then anyone who wants to spread truth will already be motivated to identify those presuppositions and explain why they are wrong.** There is no need to be concerned about things “antagonistic to Evangelical Christianity” specifically. If Evangelical Christian interpretations are true, and if human beings have good reasons to think they are true, then Dr. Geisler can simply argue for those reasons because “antagonistic to Evangelical Christianity” would equal “antagonistic to what is true”!

      Instead, Dr. Geisler goes one (unnecessary) step further by saying “we must place Lordship over scholarship”. This sounds suspiciously like a get-out-of-jail-free card.

      If Lordship – whatever that actually means – includes a dedication to whatever is true, then Lordship is not in conflict what I (and I think most people) label “scholarship”. It is only in conflict with (as he says) “bad scholarship”.

      So on the one hand, Dr. Geisler is against bad scholarship. I commend him for that. I’m against it too. So is my neighbor Larry and the guy who makes my sandwiches at Subway.

      One the other hand, Dr. Geisler feels it’s necessary to bring up a supposed dichotomy between “Lordship” and “scholarship”. Wait … I thought he was against bad scholarship? Now all the sudden he is against any scholarship at all that is not under whatever he labels “Lordship”.

      If Evangelical scholars are concerned about “Lordship”, and “Lordship” is true, then they can simply defend whatever is most likely true and they would also be defending whatever is most likely “Lordship”. If “Lordship” brings people to accept good scholarship, then they can just defend good scholarship. However, if “Lordship” does *not* bring people to believe whatever is most likely true, then why the heck would Dr. Geisler defend it?

      One reason would be that “Lordship” is a nice trump card: Someone can always just say “X is not under (what I label) Lordship and so Mike Licona (or Randal Rauser or the lady in that other pew) should reject X.” Fine. But this just begs the question: Why exactly should anyone accept Dr. Geisler’s definition of “Lordship”?

      ** As a good example, Eddy and Boyd argue against many presuppositions denying the resurrection in The Jesus Legend.

      • Robert

        Oops. I should have posted this here instead.

      • randal

        I don’t know how to say this charitably so I won’t be charitable: Norman Geisler should retire in a big wing chair with an afghan folded neatly over his legs. Visitors are welcome 1-5 weekdays.

    • http://newchristianity.blogspot.com Jim Moore

      Randal,

      One more comment on the topic of Licona and academic freedom and then I’ll stop making a nuisance of myself (unless you come back with too sharp a zinger :^} ). You are right about the generality of the tension between individual freedom and social cohesion. What liberal Christians like me and secularists object to is the rules of engagement in orthodox Christianity (and here I don’t think it matters which variety of orthodoxy you use). We think they stink.

      Stinker 1. God judges our loyalty to his person based on our belief in the truthfulness of his messengers (Biblical authors, church councils, the Pope, Ellen G. White, etc., etc.).

      Stinker 2. Even though there is abundant evidence that these messengers of God sometimes got things wrong, lied, attempted to cow/manipulate their audiences, and promoted evil, we will nevertheless make belief in the truth of all their claims a requirement for membership in our community.

      What other social groups have formal, foundational rules of engagement like this?
      The examples you cited from academia include a lot of ad hoc rules of engagement imposed by corrupt leaders. Most of them would never admit to these rules in public; they know they’ve gamed the system in their favor. But orthodox Christian churches boast about their adherence to their rules of engagement.

      • Robert

        What other social groups have formal, foundational rules of engagement like this?

        Even if Randal finds some example – and I think that he can – it will not excuse the orthodox Christian. You probably agree with this, but I just wanted to make it said:

        If two construction companies build their bridges equally poorly, neither will stand. If I’m doing X wrong, it doesn’t help anyone, or exempt anyone from doing better. That’s why methods for finding truth should not be governed by social standards. Social standards change; reality will not change with them.

        There are rules for weighing evidence and updating our beliefs based on that evidence. Not even a vote of the whole human species can obtain mercy in the court of Nature. If I hold a false belief, reality will not change to humor me, I will just be wrong. So let’s not say to one another: “Look, he’s doing it wrong too.” Who cares? That doesn’t make the other mistakes any less terrible.

      • Crude

        God judges our loyalty to his person based on our belief in the truthfulness of his messengers (Biblical authors, church councils, the Pope, Ellen G. White, etc., etc.).

        Certainly not true in the Catholic church’s case, at least not without some radical alteration of what that means. Popes can be rotten people by the Catholic Church’s understanding.

        Doesn’t seem strictly true in other cases either. Orthodox Christians and other religious can believe a person is loyal to God, but still gravely mistaken (for whatever reason) on a subject. That you violate the standards of membership for their organization doesn’t automatically mean an accusation of active disloyalty to God.

        Stinker 2. Even though there is abundant evidence that these messengers of God sometimes got things wrong, lied, attempted to cow/manipulate their audiences, and promoted evil, we will nevertheless make belief in the truth of all their claims a requirement for membership in our community.

        Again, certainly not the case with the Catholic Church. And the “abundant evidence” isn’t seen that way by the relevant Christians often, whether it’s dispute on whether the OT genocide was evil, or whether such and such was wrong. The fact that you feel strongly they were wrong doesn’t make others see things the same way.

        You may as well deal with an orthodox Christian saying that liberal Christians want to join their organizations even though their faith is a sham and all they want to do is corrupt the organization from within. I bet they believe it, but that doesn’t automatically make it true. Or false.

        What other social groups have formal, foundational rules of engagement like this?

        Plenty? Really, read up on political party purges. The problem you’re apparently having is that you think your criticisms of orthodox Christians are so obviously correct that no one could possibly disagree, and if they do disagree it must mean that they’re actively trying to be unfair and suppress the truth.

        Sometimes you can feel your case is really strong, and still end up with people legitimately disagreeing with you. And who knows, it may be that your case isn’t nearly as strong as you think it is.

        • Robert

          The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas […]

          Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God […] The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. — Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd ed. 1997, pt. 1, sect. 1, ch. 2, art. 2, III [88,97,100]

          • Crude

            Nothing in the CCC quote conflicts with what I said. You can still have rotten popes, nor is rejecting the Church in and of itself considered active disloyalty to God. Hence the discussion of invincible ignorance, etc.

          • http://www.atheistmissionary.com/ The Atheist Missionary

            Robert, now you’re just throwing slo-pitch lobs!

        • http://newchristianity.blogspot.com Jim Moore

          Crude,

          Appreciate the comeback, but I’m not persuaded.

          “Certainly not true in the Catholic church’s case, at least not without some radical alteration of what that means. Popes can be rotten people by the Catholic Church’s understanding.”

          Yes, my statement needs to be qualified. It’s shorthand. This is a combox after all, not a dissertation. With the proper qualifications the statement still stands.

          “That you violate the standards of membership for their organization doesn’t automatically mean an accusation of active disloyalty to God.”

          Maybe not automatically, but get real. Some people in churches can violate fundamental rules and get away with it. Depends on the person and the rule. This is a sign of corruption, not godliness. Most people who commit “sins” ( = “violate standards of membership”) admit what they did was wrong. The problem comes when you commit a “sin” — like believe that Jesus is not God incarnate — and insist you did the right thing. Then the accusations of disloyalty come fast and furious.

          “Again, certainly not the case with the Catholic Church. And the ‘abundant evidence’ isn’t seen that way by the relevant Christians often, whether it’s dispute on whether the OT genocide was evil, or whether such and such was wrong.”

          The Catholic Church is a large and diverse organization. American Catholicism includes a lively “liberal” wing, from which I benefitted. I was raised and educated in the Roman Catholic Church. The Jesuit priest who taught us religion in high school had been reading a lot of Barth and Tillich and taught us an odd mishmash of those viewpoints. But American Catholicism is way left of the norm and the Jesuits in upstate New York in the 1970s were way left of the rest of the American Church. The official doctrines of the church are not nearly as “liberal” as many people in America suppose.

          As for what Christians think of the evidence against the truth claims of Scripture, councils, and Popes, I agree with you. By and large, they discount it. The rest of the world thinks they’re kidding themselves.

          “Plenty? Really, read up on political party purges.”

          Huh? What, the communist party? Another religion. The Nazis? Another religion. The Freudian psychoanalytic community of the early 20th century? Another religion. “Deity” demanding loyalty and doctrine demanding uncritical acceptance. Orthodox Christianity insists that unlike these counterfeit religions it possesses the truth and is therefore justified in practicing what would otherwise be wicked. Look, I’m a Christian too, but I am not going to take ANY claim of ANY human being as completely true and correct without critical examination, especially if he claims to be speaking for God.

          “… you think your criticisms of orthodox Christians are so obviously correct that no one could possibly disagree, and if they do disagree it must mean that they’re actively trying to be unfair and suppress the truth.”

          Not quite. I’m criticizing the structure of orthodox Christian teaching, not orthodox Christians per se. Most of the people I associate with are orthodox Christians of one sort or other and they are neat people by the grace of God. And no, this is not obvious to everyone. Most of the Christians I know are pretty ignorant of the history and teachings of the church. It’s well-educated orthodox Christians I have a serious problem with, and yes, I do think they are unfair and suppress the truth.

          • Crude

            Appreciate the comeback, but I’m not persuaded.

            I’m not trying to persuade you. This is the internet, I’ve been here a while, I know how to be realistic.

            Some people in churches can violate fundamental rules and get away with it. Depends on the person and the rule. This is a sign of corruption, not godliness.

            Or maybe some rules are more important than others. Nor does this single out churches, even orthodox ones – hypocrisy abounds.

            The problem comes when you commit a “sin” — like believe that Jesus is not God incarnate — and insist you did the right thing. Then the accusations of disloyalty come fast and furious.

            Maybe that’s your personal experience, but I point out: you equated rejecting what the (any ‘orthodox’, conservative I assume) church teaches with, from their perspective, active disloyalty to God – that, merely by disagreeing, you are being disloyal to God. And I’m saying that’s nonsense.

            Disloyal to the church of which you are a member? That’s another story.

            The official doctrines of the church are not nearly as “liberal” as many people in America suppose.

            I’m aware, nor did I suggest they were. I’m pointing out that the Church does not teach that all people who reject the Church’s official teachings are being disloyal to God. Maybe you were engaged in hyperbole.

            Huh? What, the communist party? Another religion. The Nazis? Another religion.

            If you want to extend religion that broadly, be my guest. I don’t call New Atheists the Cult of Gnu for nothing. But then this isn’t about “orthodox Christians”. It’s about damn near everyone. Apparently Joe Paterno recently experienced a religious purge.

            Look, I’m a Christian too, but I am not going to take ANY claim of ANY human being as completely true and correct without critical examination, especially if he claims to be speaking for God.

            So? Don’t be part of them. They won’t stop you from leaving. Clearly they’ll be all too happy.

            Is it that you want to be part of any organization you wish, even if you believe absolutely nothing of what it stands for, or reject key components?

            It’s well-educated orthodox Christians I have a serious problem with, and yes, I do think they are unfair and suppress the truth.

            Good, so combat them. Or don’t. It’s up to you. But the charge that they know the truth, are actively suppressing it, and consider anyone who disagrees with them as being disloyal to God is simply a real tall order to justify.

            • http://newchristianity.blogspot.com Jim Moore

              Crude,

              “Maybe that’s your personal experience, but I point out: you equated rejecting what the (any ‘orthodox’, conservative I assume) church teaches with, from their perspective, active disloyalty to God – that, merely by disagreeing, you are being disloyal to God. And I’m saying that’s nonsense.”

              Clearly we are not communicating. We must be coming from different church backgrounds. I am not talking about a mere disagreement. In the circles I ran in, the only time “mere disagreement” applied was when the challenger was ignorant and needed better teaching. This is hardly ever the case among church leaders like Mike Licona. When a leader challenges a doctrine because he thinks there is something wrong with it, he may be able to gain a favorable hearing for a little while. If his criticisms resemble those of earlier heretics or he objects to something foundational (Trinity, authority of Scripture, divinity of Christ) his motives immediately become suspect. Yes, it is possible he has made an innocent error. If that is the case, other leaders expect the matter will be cleared up quickly. But often the critic insists on believing and teaching something contrary to official doctrine after being corrected. That’s a sign of either 1.) a serious problem with the doctrine or 2.) a serious problem with the critic, or both. Guess which one most leaders opt for most of the time. The formal and/or informal disciplinary machinery kicks into high gear. When it gets to that point the critic will have to make his case successfully; otherwise, depending on the doctrine(s) he is challenging, he will be judged incorrigible or apostate. These are judgments on his person, not just his teaching. Licona was pressured to resign even after he backed off a bit from his “problematic” interpretation of Mt. 27. I take that as a judgment on his person. What do you make of it? Now imagine Licona insisting that he was right about Mt. 27 and advancing similar interpretations of other passages or crossing the line into direct rejection of inerrancy. Do you seriously think his opponents will not doubt his loyalty to God? Do you seriously believe that the Biblical authors themselves do not encourage this doubt? I’d like to know on what basis.

              • Crude

                Clearly we are not communicating. We must be coming from different church backgrounds. I am not talking about a mere disagreement. In the circles I ran in, the only time “mere disagreement” applied was when the challenger was ignorant and needed better teaching.

                We do come from different church backgrounds. You were making complaints about ‘orthodox Christian churches’ full stop – as in, all of them, without exception. And your complaint was that disagreement was seen by orthodox Christian churches as disloyalty to God. Apparently, conscious disloyalty, intentional disloyalty. I’m disputing that, and I think I have tremendous grounds to.

                If our disagreement here can be attributed to ‘different Church backgrounds’, that seems to me to indicate that you’d be modifying your point. This isn’t about ‘orthodox Christian churches’ full stop. In fact, it doesn’t even seem to be limited to Christian churches at all – you asked what other sorts of groups get rid of people in this manner, I gave some examples, and you ended up saying those were all religions. Which changes the scope you’re dealing with anyway.

                When it gets to that point the critic will have to make his case successfully; otherwise, depending on the doctrine(s) he is challenging, he will be judged incorrigible or apostate. These are judgments on his person, not just his teaching.

                The only relevant judgment that would have to be made is this: is he teaching in accordance with certain minimal standards, right or wrong? Or, if you like, does he uphold these certain minimal standards? And if the person in question does not, then that could be the reason for him being asked to leave. And neither of these terms requires judging him as being intentionally disloyal to God. Disloyal to the organization? Sure.

                Licona was pressured to resign even after he backed off a bit from his “problematic” interpretation of Mt. 27. I take that as a judgment on his person. What do you make of it?

                That they may have thought Licona did not adhere to the standards that bound them as a teaching community. Here’s a question I have – did Licona, after he was dismissed, reverse again and subscribe to that interpretation?

                Do you seriously think his opponents will not doubt his loyalty to God? Do you seriously believe that the Biblical authors themselves do not encourage this doubt? I’d like to know on what basis.

                No, I do not think that his opponents must or will doubt his loyalty to God. Why in the world would that be necessitated when the first and foremost question is one of teaching and belief standard? That’s the only metric they can measure, and the only one which matters anyway. Now, could someone conceivably think ‘If you don’t adhere to this standard, you’re being disloyal to God!’? Sure. They can also think, ‘If you don’t adhere to this standard, you’re clearly a very stupid person.’ But is it necessary? Is it even extremely likely? I think it’s clearly not the case.

                • http://newchristianity.blogspot.com Jim Moore

                  Crude,

                  Remember, this is a seminary. The issue Licona got in trouble over is adherence to their statement of faith. Nothing in that statement is morally arbitrary or even negotiable. It’s not like people write a statement of faith thinking, “Well, we can’t judge anybody’s standing before God who disagrees with this point.” Negotiable or doubtful points of doctrine have no business in a statement of faith. Attacking a core doctrine of the statement is, mutatis mutandis, attacking God.

                  Therefore, when a teacher in the church contradicts his community’s statement of faith, it is always a potential breach of loyalty to God. If the teacher were stupid, ignorant of the statement of faith, flippant or lacked self-control, he wouldn’t have been allowed to teach in the first place (hopefully). It could be that the statement of faith is wrong, but odds are, the teacher is wrong. Unless he can present overwhelming evidence of error in the statement, he should not teach against it.

                  In Licona’s case, he may have just miscalculated what the community would consider within the bounds of the statement of faith. This happens often enough and it usually doesn’t lead to someone leaving his position. But I can tell you this from long and repeated experience. Transgress the boundaries of your community’s statement of faith once, and there will be people in the community who will be watching everything else you say afterwards for signs of continued transgression. Why do they keep watch? Because you are stupid or ignorant? Not likely, since you were considered worthy of teaching in the first place. No, they suspect your problem is a character flaw. Therefore, you could be a danger to the church.

                  Licona did back off of his interpretation of Mt. 27 somewhat. It didn’t save his job. His superiors apparently took a “no-tolerance” approach to the transgression or they were unhappy with the way he handled the negative reaction. And yes, it’s entirely possible that the administration took the action regretfully. Maybe they were threatened by major donors or denominational officials or simply didn’t want the negative publicity to damage the rest of the school. None of this affects my argument. It just moves the doctrinal watchdogs a step further back.

                  To bring this back to the main point, the basic problem here is human nature. Randal brought up fear, control and power as basic features of human nature that drive “witch hunts.” Yep. Some things in human culture lessen the affects of these basic emotions and others exacerbate them. I put “deities” demanding loyalty and doctrines demanding uncritical acceptance in the latter category. Orthodox Christianity of all varieties does both of these things.

      • Robert

        But orthodox Christian churches boast about their adherence to their rules of engagement.

        Some quote Paul saying “Where is the scholar? […] Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” (1 Cor. 1:20-21) as if it’s honorable to reject some ideas we would otherwise accept. How anyone can decide when to apply this line of thinking is beyond me, but my experience is that it tends to apply when the believer has been confronted with reasons to change their mind.

        • Crude

          I’ve never see that quote delivered to mean that it’s “honorable to reject knowledge we would otherwise accept”. If anything it expresses skepticism of the self-certainty of someone claimed to be or offering themselves up as wise. Even if you restrict yourself to secular topics of science and history, there’s a tremendous amount of evidence of that much.

    • http://leadme.org Jeff

      Randal, gotta say I’m kind of surprised by this post. “Thus, it is completely unfair to suggest that these dynamics are uniquely or especially operative in churches and para-church organizations.” Sure, fair enough. But who really cares if some “gloating skeptics” are going to gloat and be skeptical? It seems like a diversion to worry about that when we Christians should be much more worried about the disgusting witch hunting going on within our own circles?

      I’ve been often accused of being anti-American for focusing primarily on the atrocities of the US government, when in the minds of my “patriotic” critics I should spend equal or greater time pointing out all the atrocities committed by foreign governments as well. But as the saying goes, get your own house in order first, or as another saying goes, remove the plank in your own eye first. Insisting that “those other governments are bad too,” true as that may be, is just a cheap way of diverting attention so as to preserve the ignoble status quo here in the US.

      Don’t get me wrong, I admire the firm public stand you’ve taken against Licona’s vicious critics, and you’ve stated plainly that their campaign was a wicked one, for which I applaud you. But shouldn’t we Christians continue to focus our attention on this issue rather than being immediately sidetracked by worrying what skeptics are going to think?

      • randal

        “But who really cares if some “gloating skeptics” are going to gloat and be skeptical? It seems like a diversion to worry about that when we Christians should be much more worried about the disgusting witch hunting going on within our own circles?”

        I don’t think it is an either/or but I agree in your weighting of priorities.

        “I’ve been often accused of being anti-American for focusing primarily on the atrocities of the US government, when in the minds of my “patriotic” critics I should spend equal or greater time pointing out all the atrocities committed by foreign governments as well.”

        I agree with you on this point. This penchant to focus on the sins of foreign nations is appalling. My own government is, relative to the power it wields in foreign politics, as bad and self-seeking as any. And it is foolish and naive for me to suggest otherwise.

        “But shouldn’t we Christians continue to focus our attention on this issue rather than being immediately sidetracked by worrying what skeptics are going to think?”

        I blog almost every day Jeff. Consequently, I have room to address the issues I’ve raised as well as your legitimate concerns (with which I agree).

    • http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

      “It doesn’t matter where you go in the university: certain conversations are not tolerated. Diversity of opinion, academic freedom, so-called free thought, is always qualified. Needless to say, the same dynamic is at play in the work place and wider society. Thus, it is completely unfair to suggest that these dynamics are uniquely or especially operative in churches and para-church organizations.”

      I’m proud of you for writing this, Randal. Recently, you seemed to write of corporations – later refined to for-profit corporations – as if they were the only sociological grouping which might put self-preservation ahead of the interests of its members and outsiders.

      Precisely because the dynamic you describe exists in all human organizations, God chose the kingdom of God to replace the church in the late 1st Century as His ongoing vehicle of salvation. Church is governed by fallible humans while the kingdom of God is governed by an incorruptible God.

      • randal

        “Recently, you seemed to write of corporations – later refined to for-profit corporations – as if they were the only sociological grouping which might put self-preservation ahead of the interests of its members and outsiders.”

        On the contrary, the root is human fallenness, the fruit is the socially formed institution. Consequently, we should expect the distortion of the fruit to be fairly universal in reflection with the problems with the fruit.

        • http://blogforthelordjesus.wordpress.com Mike Gantt

          That was my point.

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